From: e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil Karloukovski) Subject: Re: The Bulgars are Bulgars (Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars) Date: 11 May 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <7h8v0l$fmg@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> References: <36ca073a.16343620@news.yale.edu> <36cca3ed.14676934@news.yale.edu> <36cca75c.15555467@news.yale.edu> <36cf2980.190197920@news.yale.edu> <36dee7fa.108219411@news.yale.edu> <36e40f21.4849643@news.yale.edu> <7c6hs4$va@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36f6aeef.439178515@news.yale.edu> <7dajnt$ssk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7ei51h$4m5$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <370cf95d.8677457@news.yale.edu> <7en884$1t8@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3712427B.DA4346AA@mbay.net> <3713a994.660219@news.yale.edu> <371BFCD7.98263C22@montclair.edu> <372220bb.143446995@news.yale.edu> <37226EDB.7038A129@montclair.edu> <7fuohl$ori@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <372f5c62.91986990@news.yale.edu> <372f5cbe.92079743@news.yale.edu> <7gp50a$cct@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3734b8cd.146733852@news.yale.edu> <3736019e.9033128@news.yale.edu> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, U.K. Mime-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: sci.lang In article <3736019e.9033128@news.yale.edu>, cluster.user@yale.edu says... ... >>BTW, about this "alem" (first) you had some doubts. Dobrev has: "The > >in common turkic "il" is attested (codex comanicus), and its >derivatives. what is disputed by clauson is "al" meaning "front" >in addition to this. > >>"pamirian" "alem" (alam, olam) and "tvirem" (tijorem, tiram, diverem) >>denoted the beginning and the end of the harvest, correspondingly. Z. >>Lenz in "Zeitrechnung im Nuristan. Berlin, 1938, had that the >>"pamirians" (I wonder whether he means the nuristani) celebrated the >>New year twice - as "Nauruz-i-olam" (initial New Year) and, the > >I don't know what is meant by these words. if it really means "first" >it is not common in iranian. it could be a combined arabic - iranian >awwal-am as in talysh OK, but the nuristanis (Kafiristan) were pagans until quite recently. Z. Lenz was probably careful enough to distinguish between traditional calendar terms and 20th century arabic loans. Here is what Dobrev has for the ordinals in the nominalia as well as the quite differing turkic interpretation: bulgar modern pamirian, saka khotanese, sanscrit, turkic etc. sogdian avestan reading ALEM, ALAM, OLAM (beg. *AL (main) ALAM (first, il, ilk, ilki first of the year [SIja, p.266] high, main) (one) <-- V.K.: isn't "bir" ALEJN (first) [SCR, p.29] the common turkic? ?[TRS, p.11]? AL (first) [Mun, p.188] TUTOM, THUW (two), DUWTAN DUV (two) *DUVITYA to":rt second (a pair) [SIja, p.266] [SIJa, p.201 (four)!! [Jazg, p.79] DUVVOM (second) [RPDS, p.134] CHITEM, SIT (three) CIT (three) ye.tti, ye.ti third [SIJa, p.79] [SIJa, p.201] (seven)!! C^I (three) CITYA (thrid) [Jazg, p.53] jazg. CHIJEM (third) ishk. SEJEM (third) TVIREM, TFAR (four) TEUR (four) TUIRYA (fourth) toquz fourth [SIJa, p.450] [SIJa, p.266] [B, p.246] (nine)!! C^FIR (four) [Mun, p.456] CFJUREM (fourth) [Ishk, p.51] VECHEM, PENJ (five) PENJ, PATSI (five) u":c fifth [Jazg, p.193] PAMJEM (fifth) (three)!! talish W@JZH [SIJa, p.266] (five fingers) PNCM (=panchem) (fifth) - PINDZEM (fifth) sogdian buddhist [RPDS, p.594] jazg. PENCHEM (fifth) SHEHTEM, S^AD (six) X^SEI (six) SAT (six) sekkiz, sekiz sixth SHPAKHEM, SHASHOM [SIJa, p.266] [B, p.246] (eight)!! [RPDS, p.745] ALTEM ALTH (back) ARTHA (ending), alti twelfth, [Jazg, p.10] ARDHA (twelve) (six) last balkar ART (last month) [SCR, p.28] >>Dobrev also cites some sumero-accadian "alejn" (first, initial), >>assyro-babylonian "ejlul" (ejl-ul, first month), and for "tiramokh, > >it's the first month of the jewish year. eyl or something similar >may be thought of for semitic "first," arabic 'awwal what about the sumerian "ellimu" (first) or "tamtamma" (four (people?))? What is the origin of these iranian ordinal suffixes -m, etc. and the similar to them danube bulgar -em, -om ("vechem", "tutom") and volga bulgar/chuvash -im, -em ("veshim, "pilem")? As you said the common turkic ordinal suffix is quite different - -inchi. Dobrev mentions that L. Benzing (1959) already proposed that "the bulgar suffixes are from the persian -um" but there is some confusion because later he introduces some paleoasiatic and samojed ordinal suffixes -imdi, -emesh and says that "the chuvash ordinal suffix -mesh is identical with the paleoasiatic -mesh used by the Enisey ostjaks to form ordinals". Also he found some basque "elen" (first month), "hiren" (third month). BTW, going back to the bulgar "shegor" (bull, the year of the bull) and the various pamirian, caucasian (sheg, ceg), sanscrit (s,ikvara), turkic (sIg~Ir) paralles. Dobrev also has: the proto-indian "siir" (the year of the ox), sumerian "sikka" (horned cattle in general), modern iranian (Zekhre dialect) "shegor" (wild bull), basque "shegor" (1-year old calf). Regards, Vassil K. ============= TRS - TalIshko-russkij slovar', M., 1976 RPDS - Russko-pushtu-dari slovar', M., 1983 SIJa - Sredne-iranskie jazIki, M., 1981 SCR - A.McDonell, Sanscrit dictionary. Oxford, 1976 B - T. Barrou, Sanskrit, M., 1971 Mun - A. Grunberg, Mundzhanskij jaZik, M., 1980 Jazg - D. Edel'man, Jazguljamsko-rus. slovar', M., 1971 Ishk - T .Pahalina, Ishkashimskij jazIk, M., 1959 Benzing, L. Die Hunnish, Donaubulgarische and Volgabulgarische - In: Philogiae Turcica Fundamenta. Wiesbaden, 1959.