From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User)
Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars
Date: 03 May 1999 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <372d1f15.110925332@news.yale.edu>
References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl> <796m95$eq2@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <375c0ea6.1954957123@news.wxs.nl> <79fo99$qkl@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3728f548.21087652@news.yale.edu> <7gekuh$otb@cpca3.uea.ac.uk>
Organization: Yale University
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang

On 1 May 1999 10:27:29 GMT, e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil
Karloukovski) wrote:


>
>>I have some questions concerning this.
>>
>>1. "september" is reinterpreted as "october."
>
>
>no, "in the 15th indict" should mean ">=September 821". ELEM (tenth)
>additionally specifies it was in October.
>
> is it the first or
>>second month of the byzantine indict? (I gather the byzantine indict
>>starts in september).
>
>yes, the 15th indict was between 1.09.821 and 31.08.822
>
>
>>2. why should the bulghars use a chronology out of synch with the
>>byzantines, at least the chronology in the insciption) and instead use
>>the familiar roman chronology (beginning january) which I gather was
>>more common in the west (corresponding to the western or western part
>>of the roman empire).
>
>
>I am a little bit confused by the various theories of Dobrev, but he argues 

his elem, alem, altem, enielem are in fact confusing, his assignemnts
are variously 10, 1, 12 or "last:, 11.

>that 22.12, Ignazhden, Edinak - the New year day in the bulg. folklore, was 
>also the first day of the  new year in the bulgar calendar. The mixed bulgar-
>slavic passage in one damaskin from the Rila monastery comes to support this. 
>It says:
>
> "Trii sut velikii dobrodeteli Vera Nadezhda i Ljubii. 
>  No Nadezhdou oubu i ljubi. Elma veshu osma dne. 
>  Malal rechem. Doverii hashe rashinekaa."
>
> "Three are the greatest virtues - faith, hope and love.
>  But the hope, however, love you. ELMA (tenth) VESHU (month) eigth day.
>  MALA (here) we will say: the trust is HASHE (better) [than] RASHINEKAA (light)."
>
>Capitalised are the non-slavic, bulgar words - from the "pamirian" H@SHE 
>(better), RASHNIK (fire, light), etc. 
>
>The church day of the Faith, Hope and Love was on 30 September, which is
>indeed the eight day of the tenth month, counting from 22 December. So, ELEM
>was "tenth", linked to some pamirian (Jazguljami) word "helen, heli" (a large

BTW these should "h" be /x/ i.e. kh. iranian distinguishes beween /h/
and /*kh*/

>number, a multitude).
>
>
>VK
>
>(NB the tripod web-page lists the older interpretation of ELMA VESH as "first 
>month", from ALEM - first.)
>
>
>>3. the "turkic" interpretation on the other hand would be consistent
>>with the greek inscription.
>>oncerning this.
>
>dobrev argues that all these saka, turkic, chinese, bulgar calendars followed 

the chinese calendar has a midpoint between the wintersolicitice and
the sping equinox, the exact date depending on the moon. apparently
the chinese record that they "imposed their calender on the tu"rku"t
(at any rate the tu"rku"t adopted it). forgot the reference now.
pritsak seems to have an alternate (older?) beginning for the tu"rku"t
one (I'llhave to look at the article mor eclosely). chuvash and a
central asian qypchaq language seem to preserve the chinese february
(chinese) new year by their designation of the month as "newruz" (from
persian).

>the "rule of the double Aquarius" - both Sun and Jupiter in Acquarius at the 
>start of the calendar/year, and that this shows the antiquity of the calendar,
>that Aquarius was around the winter solstice (22.12) some ...thousand years ago.


two
>