From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User)
Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars
Date: 29 Apr 1999 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <3727a871.84105096@news.yale.edu>
References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl> <796m95$eq2@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <375c0ea6.1954957123@news.wxs.nl> <79fo99$qkl@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3718c0d8.988421@news.yale.edu> <7fhjus$h91@cpca3.uea.ac.uk>
Organization: Yale University
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang

On 21 Feb 1999 12:27:46 GMT e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil
Karloukovski) wrote:

>In article <36cdff63.113890525@news.yale.edu>, cluster.user@yale.edu says...

>>>TURNESI - ‘golden coins’     Turanshi - yellow, golden
>>
>>probably turan*dj*i:, turun*dj*i
>>
>>turun*dj*, turan*dj* means "an orange",
>>turun*dj*i:, turan*dj*i: means "orange colored". the closest i found
>>was a metaphorical name for the sun by steingass as turun*dj*i: zer
>>(zar = gold, golden). asside from the fact that the -i: sufifx was i:k
>>in middle persian, somehow I find this explanation as giving "too
>>colloquial" a name for the coin.


>well, even in modern (or, say, 19th c.) bulgarian the word for a
>"gold coin" is zhyltica, from zhylt ("yellow"). So, it could be that
>the bulgar word TURNESI was just translated in slavic as zhyltica.

>That wouldn't be unusual because we have another (modern) bulgarian
>word - zlatka, "marten" (from the slavic zlato, "gold") which is a 
>direct translation from the bulgar (volga bulgar) word for marten,
>sable pelts - DALA. And DALA in its turn is probably derived from 
>the pamirian word for gold - DILJA, TILJA. 

I don't know where it's recorded for volgabulghar. anyhow, it is found
in new persian for marten, but pashto uses a different word. it could
very well have entered new persian through volgabulghar.

OTOH in his 1986 book, which has much less polemics as to turkic vs.
iranian, dobrev cites evenki dalak (the drop of -k is expected in
chuvash). (I didn't check the word, anybody care to?).

BTW so here's a tungus word, vassil.

>This fits well to the documentary evidence that the volga bulgars 
>didn't (initially) mint silver or gold coins, but the pelts of marten 
>or sable were used as money instead (the Caspian codex of B. Zakhoder).
>The taxes collected by the king were also in the form of pelts (Ibn 
>Fadlan).


>Regards,
>Vassil K.