From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: The Bulgars are Bulgars (Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars) Date: 28 Apr 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <37279668.17962909@news.yale.edu> References: <36ca073a.16343620@news.yale.edu> <36cca3ed.14676934@news.yale.edu> <36cca75c.15555467@news.yale.edu> <36cf2980.190197920@news.yale.edu> <36dee7fa.108219411@news.yale.edu> <36e40f21.4849643@news.yale.edu> <7c6hs4$va@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36f6aeef.439178515@news.yale.edu> <7dajnt$ssk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7ei51h$4m5$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <370cf95d.8677457@news.yale.edu> <7en884$1t8@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3712427B.DA4346AA@mbay.net> <371BFC6C.78C466C6@montclair.edu> <371d0834.77559755@news.yale.edu> <371E38F9.628B3D8@indiana.edu> Organization: Yale University Newsgroups: sci.lang On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:45:45 -0500, mithomps@indiana.edu wrote: > > >Cluster User wrote: > >> On Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:02:52 -0400, "H.M.Hubey" >> wrote: >> >> >Mike Wright wrote: >> >> >> >> > > old uyghur ku"in, ku"in bitig (bitig "book" < chinese also) >> >> [...] >> >> >> >> What is the Chinese word that "bitig" is supposed to have come from? >> > >> >I think it comes from something like 'pit' or 'bit' meaning "brush", >> >if I recall correctly. >> > >> yes. I posted it earlier. > >It's a frequently repeated claim, but it doesn't work phonologically or >chronologically. We have the word in approximately that form in the Toba >Wei glosses, say from 4th or 5th century. One fellow (I forget whom) with >great enthusiasm but little knowledge of Chinese phonological history was >the first to propose that etymology. However, at that time the >pronunciation in Chinese was still something like [plj@t]. In any case, >using the Toba Wei glosses is very brave. If we disregard them and use the >old Uighur as the source of the borrowing, we have the problem that at that it's found in tu"rku"t so perhaps it can be older? >time in Changan the word was pronounced like [pjEl] or [pjED]; the final t >by that date had already spirantized, so that other Uighur borrowings from >Chinese with earlier final t at that time have -r. G. Kara suggests >instead that biti- is cognate with a Turkic word meaning "to carve," though >that has some difficulties as well. > >Mikael Thompson > >