From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars Date: 22 Apr 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <371e6235.18266886@news.yale.edu> References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl> <796m95$eq2@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <375c0ea6.1954957123@news.wxs.nl> <79fo99$qkl@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <370296ad.69443734@news.yale.edu> <7dvofs$ai0@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <370a6f59.1892451@news.yale.edu> <7efi7l$trh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <370e77ea.60462860@news.yale.edu> Organization: Yale University Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang On Fri, 09 Apr 1999 21:59:32 GMT, cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) wrote: >vassil karloukovski communicated to me: >> >>About the clan of Vokil (Oukil) there was also some iranian correspondence, and dobrev associates that with "vakil" (persian < arabic waki:l) "deputy" "agent" ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ to which vassil karloukovski communicated to me: > >what about some direct arab influence? Or from some other semitic l.? In fact, >bulgars and arabs met face to face at the beg. of the 8th c., during the arab >siege of Constantinople. Could they have taken prisoners? Also, the bulgars >of eastern dagestan were displaced during the khazar-arab wars, some were >islamised by the arabs (and some of them went to Volga? - the belendzhers-muslims >of ibn-Fadlan?), others apparently moved to the Don region (and could have >later migrated even further to the west, to the Balkans). When Boris decided >to abandon paganisms, various missioneries flocked to his country, even some >muslims (arabs?), whom Boris imprisoned. Later, his son Simeon tried to struck a >military aliance with the arabs in order to mout a joint siege of Constantinple >by land and by the sea. His emmisaries sailed to them and there were some talks >about using arab fleet, but they were caught by the byzantines on their way back >to the balkans. >I am just trying to summarise the various occasions of bulgar-arab contacts. an author trying to decipher the nominalia exagerrated this and even had the bulghars using the hijri lunar calendar! waki:l is hardly to be used even by minor nobility, it denotes an attorney, an agent of someone. it is only in the modern populism that it became applied to MP's and government ministers in turkey. tehreis some use of arabic by the pechenegs (according to nemeth's decipherment of the Nagy .. treasure. cultural items like "Tabaq" for plate and Ta:s (< persian) for a small vessel. there is "biser" in bulgarian (pearl). in arabic (busr, busra(t) )"a bead", more usually "unripe date". it could have been acquired through trade directly, though it is said that turkic groups used the word. they are not however evidence of the east-iranian orign of the bulghars. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>can't remember it now. Also about the ruling clan Doulo - it mean >>"ruler" or "appointed to rule", something of that kind. > >yes. hung. gyula. this seems to be the accepted meaning, but I don't >know its etymology. > >> >>unogindurs) according to Dobrev denoted the central, inner tribe - the >>sumer, accadian UNUKKU (the central part of the state), the bulgar >>*onogon, ongol as evident from the preserved in the region of the >>former volga bulgaria word ONGO (inner circle) (no references!). >>The ending -dor = in the pamirian, celtic l-s it serves to form possesive >>forms. The other tribe CHDAR denoted the periferal regions - SDHA, SHIDA >>in ancient Georgia, SHIDAR (side, adj.) in persian, in some l-s of >>Hindu Kush. couldn't find "shidar" for persian. arabic *dj*ida:r "wall" is semitic. >> >>The chdar-bolkars were situated according to Dobrev in Eastern Dagestan, >>aside from the other tribes. The onogkhandor-blgar - in central >>(central-western) fortified part of the Caucasus - Balkaria, Cherkesia >>(the Khumarin fortress, the building material for which had to be brought >>from a 100-150 km distance). It was from where the Vanandians left for >>Armenia, and from where Asparukh run away later. And also where were the >>later "black bulgars" of the oldest son of Kubrat - Batbajan. The >>X c. persian geography Hudud al-Alam says about them: "These bulgars are >>mountainers. They possess fields and large numbers of cattle". >> >