From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User)
Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars
Date: 21 Apr 1999 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <371e49d7.12029337@news.yale.edu>
References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl> <796m95$eq2@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <375c0ea6.1954957123@news.wxs.nl> <79fo99$qkl@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3717dfd1.43241958@news.yale.edu> <7fhir3$h91@cpca3.uea.ac.uk>
Organization: Yale University
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang

On 20 Apr 1999 09:53:39 GMT, e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil
Karloukovski) wrote:

>In article <3717dfd1.43241958@news.yale.edu>, cluster.user@yale.edu says...
>>On 10 Apr 1999 11:15:25 GMT, e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil Karloukovski) wrote:
>
>...
>>>Yes, it would be probably helpful to compare the arabic accounts of the
>>>alans and the bulgars. Dobrev hasn't treated this question. BTW, the 
>>>arab accounts in my previous post were from one book of Atanas Stamatov.
>
>>I just founds such a discussion in studia orientalia I (budapest -
>>1961 I think) J. Harmata, the language of the iranian tribes in south
>>russia
>...
>
>>"the Alans or A:s. had formerly lived, together with the Pechenegs,
>>around th elower reaches of the Amu-darya (the Uzboy), and later,
>>after the river had changed its course, they migrated to the coast of
>>the Sea of the Khazars"; Bi:ru:ni: also telss us that "the language of
>>these Alans is a compound Chorasmian and Pecheneg-Turkish". ...
>>                                    >>
>
>>the historical error abouit the pechenegs aside, 
>
>
>there is probably another detail: Amu-darya flowed into the Caspian 
>sea until quite recently (until the VIII-th c. ?). On the other side, 
>Alans are mentioned near Danube as early as the I c. Pompey also had to
>march against them, crossing the Caspian gates. So Biruni's account 
>could relate to a later, separate migration of some group. There were 

it may simply be an explanation that there were alans around khwarezm
(apparently there were and a turkmen tribal division is known as
"alan". my point was that the languages were thought to be related.

>several isolated groups of Alans living in Europe and Asia and their 
>habitats didn't form a contiguous area.
>
>and leaving aside the
>>question of the relation between alanian ansd ossetian (which is
>>basically one of th efine points argued in the article) this would
>>tend to show an awarness (biruni was a kwarezmian) of the east-iranain
>>nature of alanic. the lack of reference to the bulghars, are lack of
>>any analogous statment on bulghar thus stand out. 
>
>
>I don't know what were the similarities/differences between choresmian,
>sogdian, and other eastern-iranisn l-s, but there is one interesting 
>observation in Richard Frye's "History of ancient Iran", Muenchen, 1983:
>
> " Whereas the Pamir l-s cannot be considered as descendants of any known
>  ancient Iranian l., the l. of the Yaghnobis ... is descendant from a 
>  Sogdian dialect."
>
>Apparently there must have been some reasons not to connect alanian/
>ossetian with the modern pamir l-s, so that the linking of old bulgar
>with pamirian but not so much with alanian was right.
>

ethnologue classifies the pamir languages as belonging to the same
branch of east iranian as pashto and classifies osset with yaghnobi
(i.e. soghdian).

fine if he seeks a distinction between alanic and his iranian bughar.
however, he freely uses talysh and persian (west iranian) to prove his
point. also I imagine the languages couldn't have been too divergent,
and any pamiri venturing out would be under considerable soghdian and
alanic influence. soghdian was after all the trade language of the
region and there was considerable sogdian influence on turkic as well.

>>you might want to look at the article, there is a refernce to an
>>iranian name similar to asparukh (it may even be that).
>
>
>Yes, there was one alan general Aspar in V-th c. Byzantium, who fought 
>against the vandals of Northern Africa. Also, one regional governor of
>Alan origin Asparg (?) in Spain.
>
>  
>VK
>