From: e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil Karloukovski) Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars Date: 20 Apr 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <7fhjus$h91@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl> <796m95$eq2@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <375c0ea6.1954957123@news.wxs.nl> <79fo99$qkl@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3718c0d8.988421@news.yale.edu> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, U.K. Mime-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang In article <3718c0d8.988421@news.yale.edu>, cluster.user@yale.edu says... >On 08 Feb 1999 Vassil Karloukovski wrote: ... >>by the Don river tribal formations, yes, akin to each other but still >>under the leadership of different lords. What 'upper classes' are you >>talking about? Lang produced even more funny etymologies. For example, >>he transforms the name of LIBERTIN, one bulgar leader who fought against >>the goths, to the turkic ALP-ERTEM or something similar. How many other >alp erdem, brave(ry) manliness / virtue (from er = man, clauson). the >etymology does not seem unreasonable to me anymore. "alp" is common >in personal names in turkic. I gave an example from volgabulghar >before. moreover, in that case the form of the word is alIp (or alIb). > >avoiding final consonant clusters even with liquids seems typical of >the turkic languages (or dialects of) in question (qazan barIs - >"boris"). erdem is found in hungarian e'rdem. furthermore the two >words are found together in a tu"rku"t expression "alpI erdemi" - >his bravery, his manliness (virtue). the use of two similar words >together in an expression is common in turkic and continues in >modern turkish). > >if one is going to quibble about details and not accept "libertin" >as simply a latinization, or simply a roman name? one can point out possibilities such as >initial vowel reduction in chuvash (such as what resulted in >russian "loshad"); the variants ertem (tuva) and erden (anat. dial.) >see clauson p. 206. well, it was "alasha" in danube bulgar, not "loshad'" or "Albania"->"Lobania" as it could be in russian. Buzan and Libertin were two bulgar generals who together with the Gepids fought against the Goths near Belgrade. Are you going to propose one so early slavic influence on bulgar (V-th c. and a latin source)? Besides, the other name - Buzan, is not turkic, to start with. BUZ - "a mountain goat" in Iranian, also probably in Thracian (hence "Byzantion"). VK