From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars Date: 17 Apr 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <3718c0d8.988421@news.yale.edu> References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl> <796m95$eq2@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <375c0ea6.1954957123@news.wxs.nl> <79fo99$qkl@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <370d1b3e.17350739@news.yale.edu> <7en7q2$1t8@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> Organization: Yale University Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang On 08 Feb 1999 Vassil Karloukovski [envrcl.env.uea.ac.uk@uea.ac.uk (envresearch lab)} wrote: >In article <36BBC7FE.EB0C1D63@montclair.edu>, hubeyh@montclair.edu says... >>Vassil Karloukovski wrote: >... >>Khumara and that region has runic writings which have been >>decrypted as d-Bolgaric and Turkic. The word "der" shows up >>instead of 'yer' or 'cer'. >> >>> and remained unexplained, out of context, as the 'turkic' bulgars were >>> not 'supposed' to do such things... >> >>Balkars were called "xunaci Malkarla" (see Miziev). YOu should not >>have a tough time finding Miziev's books. >I haven't read them but his conclusions are obviously questioned by other >researchers. O. Bubenok in his work on the pre-mongol iranophone population >in eastern europe says: > "Some researchers expressed the opinion that the Alans of the Don forest- > steppe region were Turkicized during the Khazar epoch by the Khazars and > Bulgars. As a proof runic inscriptions on the walls of the Mayatsky castle > are pointed out. They are written allegedly in a Turkic language. However > these texts have no equivalent in another language and they are very > fragmentary which prevents to read them in any language including Ossetian." > (The citation is from the summary of his book at > http://www.gilan.uar.net/nasu/ios/summary1.html ) see acta orientalia budapest vol. 15 >The turkic readings of the runic inscriptions from southern russia assume >they were written from right to left in the usual turkic manner, while the script (the siberian script) seems to have been introduced during the tu"rku"t period. >Kysljasov concluded that they must be read from left to right!? Dobrev came >independently to the same conclusion regarding the runic inscriptions from >the Danube. >>Secondly, Lang shows Bulgar words "kutrigur" and "utigur". Find >>an Iranian etymology for them. It is quite easy to see these >>words are Turkic. Kutrigur is a corruption of "kOltUrgUr". The word >>"kOltUr" means "to lift" in Balkar. These are the uplifted-Bulgars >>i.e. the upper classes. >??? >kutriguri and utiguri were two independent, geographically separated utirgur, utirgur may go back to otur (c.turkic otuz) og~ur "30 ogur" - as I said typical turkic tribal nomenclature). >by the Don river tribal formations, yes, akin to each other but still >under the leadership of different lords. What 'upper classes' are you >talking about? Lang produced even more funny etymologies. For example, >he transforms the name of LIBERTIN, one bulgar leader who fought against >the goths, to the turkic ALP-ERTEM or something similar. How many other alp erdem, brave(ry) manliness / virtue (from er = man, clauson). the etymology does not seem unreasonable to me anymore. "alp" is common in personal names in turkic. I gave an example from volgabulghar before. moreover, in that case the form of the word is alIp (or alIb). avoiding final consonant clusters even with liquids seems typical of the turkic languages (or dialects of) in question (qazan barIs - "boris"). erdem is found in hungarian e'rdem. furthermore the two words are found together in a tu"rku"t expression "alpI erdemi" - his bravery, his manliness (virtue). the use of two similar words together in an expression is common in turkic and continues in modern turkish). if one is going to quibble about details and not accept "libertin" as simply a latinization, one can point out possibilities such as initial vowel reduction in chuvash (such as what resulted in russian "loshad"); the variants ertem (tuva) and erden (anat. dial.) see clauson p. 206. >derivations might be proposed here, depending on the language one fancies >to apply? And as we are in this mood, let's look at the name of HAJLANDURI - >caucasian mountainers, friends of the kushans and enemies of the persians, >who were either part of or connected to the unogundurs-bulgars. One >armenian researcher derived HAJLANDURI from the celtic HAILAND and >HIGHLANDEUR. Any objections? miguel, is there a celtic word I am missing? "highlander" was given by english speakers ot the gaelic scots when they were driven to the highlands of scotland centuries later. "highlander" has a perfectly sound anglo-saxon (i.e. germanic) etymology. the questions I would ask at this point is which armenian "L" was used. the velar /l/ later became /*gh*/ and if this is the right time period for /gh/. if so, one is back to *og~ur. the -dur suffix is thought to represent turkic "dur" = "stay", as in bayIndur (a turkmen tribe). names in the imperative are common in turkic. in osman turkish one even has "yeter" (enough, a girls name, after a succession of daughters). >... >>That is because the people who speculate did not think of anything else. >>The word could simply be 'Magyar'. In Turkish it comes out as >>"macar" and d-Bolgaric would make it "madar". This is also speculation. >it is indeed so and quite an ahistorical one. Both greek and iranian >etymologies has been proposed for "madara", but nobody I am aware of tried >to link it to the magyars, who appeared only two centuries later. >>> religious complex of Madara (the same zoroastrian-type temples, cloisters >>> in caves, etc.) around the relief!? But it was more difficult to suppose >> >>YOu can find people with the name "Ibrahim" or "Mohammad" in Kazan >>and Malaysia. There are no ARabs there. This is begining to sound >>like the guy who says the mummies in Urumqi were Celts because they >>wore plaid. How can this shit be published but other shit like it >>can't be published? >what is so wrong with the celtic interpretation?, a plausible one could >probably be constructed. Let's start with the ethnicons you like so >much: the eastern CIMMERIANS vs. CYMR (Wales). Any objections? :-)) what do you say miguel? at any rate this is a different time period. >Regards, >Vassil K >>Best Regards, >>Mark