From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars Date: 07 Apr 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <370ab8c4.20687717@news.yale.edu> References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl> <796m95$eq2@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <375c0ea6.1954957123@news.wxs.nl> <79fo99$qkl@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <370296ad.69443734@news.yale.edu> <7dvofs$ai0@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <370a6f59.1892451@news.yale.edu> Organization: Yale University Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang from previous discussion: >Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars >Date: 02 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT >From: e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil Karloukovski) >Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang >In article <36db0d1c.70930572@news.yale.edu>, cluster.user@yale.edu says... >>On 11 Feb 1999 Vassil Karloukovski wrote: >... >>>'child, descendant', etc. Thas is, Avitohol corresponds to the persian name of >>>Avituh, meaning 'doe's child'. This interpretation is supported by one XIV c. >> >>reference? >sorry, no reference was given by Dobrev. The persian examples were rather >accessory to the main story and he only mentiones "the ancient persian >Avituh from the old iranian "avi" (doe), and "tuh" - a persian form of the >sanscrit "tuk" (descendant, son). Avituh was also called one of the early >followers of Christianity, mentioned in the Xth c. Sabine book." >>the from without the -l baffles me. >> >>from "persian" (unqualified) I understand "new persian" i.e. the >>post-islamic literary language. >> >>>lithuanian chronicle, which narrates the miraculous ways in which the progenito >>>rs >the popping-up of the bulgarian name in this lithuanian chronicle is not >strange, having in mind that in the XIV c. there was a major flight of >churchmen, literate people from the Balkans to the north caused by the >ottoman advance (the so called "second south-slavic influence on russian, >eastern slavic" of D. Likhachev). One Bulgarian - Grigorij Camblak, even >became bishop of Lithuania and Kiev so that this lithuanian text (which, >BTW, was written in old bulgarian or old church slavonic, call it as you >like) could be either the work of or be influenced by a bulgarian source. >The reference is: "Polnoe sobranie russkikh sochinenij", M.-L., 1960, >t. 32, s. 40. >Regards, >Vassil K. >Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars >Date: 01 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT >From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) >Organization: Yale University >Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang >On 11 Feb 1999 Vassil Karloukovski wrote: >> >>In article <79skrj$u81@cpca3.uea.ac.uk>, e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk says... >> >>... >> >> >>a final note about the nominalia. - Before Asparuh, who crossed the Danube >>in 680 AD and settled in present Bulgaria, it lists the names of five rulers: >>Avitohol, Irnik, Gostun, Kurt, and Bezmer. The standard approach was to >>equate Avitohol to Atilla, and Irnik - to his son Ernah, and that was used >>to support the "Hunnic" origin of the bulgars. But in contrast to the following >>after them rulers, Avitohol and Irnik are attributed unusually long reigns - >>300 and 150 years respectively, from ~150 to ~450 AD, and from ~450 to ~600 >>AD, and they appear more like progenitors. >> ... >> >> >>Peter Dobrev (as well as earlier researchers) have proposed iranian etymologies >>for the name of Avitohol: from the wakhan awu, awi 'doe', the ishkashimi ahvi, >>ahui 'doe', the farsi kabuli afi, ahu 'the same'; and the wakhan tohol, tofl >lorimer does not list tofl for wakhi but it is probably `ar. Tifl >(child, with emphatic t). tox@li means a young male sheep. in persian >it is toqli:. all fine but there is a turkic angle to it (NB persian >q). doefer lists it as turkic loanword in persian and other languages, >found in kashgari as toqlI, 6 month old lamb. thsi word seems to have existed in oghuric: hung. toklyo' "year old lamb" (acc. to kakuk < * toqlIg~) ("chuvash stuides" p. 89) perhaps pahlavi avituh was given a false etymology in a turkic - alanic environment and connected with atilla (?) >persian (iranian) a:hu: is well known. >>'child, descendant', etc. Thas is, Avitohol corresponds to the persian name of >>Avituh, meaning 'doe's child'. This interpretation is supported by one XIV c. >>lithuanian chronicle, which narrates the miraculous ways in which the progenito >>rs >>of various peoples had been saved: >> >> " Romulus and Remus were nurtured by a she-wolf. Astiag, the king of the >> medians, said to Gasparg, his secretary, to kill Cyrus so that he wouldn't >> reign after him, but Gasparg took pity on him. ... _Also, the son moesian, >> or bulgarian, was nurtured by a doe, after he was thrown in the woods to >> die._ Paris, the son of Priam, was nurtured by a bear..." >> >clauson, on commenting on the chinese account of the turkic wolf >story, theorises that sometimes names, were later taken literally, >especially by foreigners, thus giving rise to animal descent >stories. >>Thus, Avitohol with his 300 years in the nominalia was not a historical persona >>ge >>but the progenitor of the bulgars. The next ruler after him - Irnik, was equate >>d >>to Ernah, the son of Atilla, who moved with his tribe south of the Danube and >>settled in Scythia Minor (northern Dobrudzha) as byzantine federates. First, >>Irnik is an iranian name and corresponds to the persian name Yernik. Next, the >>nominalia explicitly states that the first five bulgar rulers prior to Asparuh >>lived _north_ of the Danube: >> >> "... These 5 princes reigned on the other side of the Danube for 515 years >> with shaven heads. And after that came to this side of the Danube prince >> Isperih, and the same is up to now." >> (" Sii 5 k'nenz dryzhashe knenzhenie ob onu stranou Dunaja 515 let >> ostrizhenniimi glavami. I potom pride na stranou Dounaja Isperih k'nenz >> tozhde i dosele.") >> >> >>On the other hand, there is the account of the armenian historian Egishe that >>around 427 AD a certain Eran, ruler of the hajlandurs (most certainly - the >>onogundurs-bulgars) was at the head of a hostile to the persians union of >>peoples who ravaged the persian territories up to the byzantine border. This >>Eran must have been famous enough in order to exert his authority and to >>unite the tribes and it looks plausible that the nominalia would use him in >>order to describe the next period of 150 years. There could be, of course, >>some later overlaping and interaction with the memory of the hunnic Ernah >>as Scythia Minor was also the first Asparuh's territory to south of the Danube. >> >> >>Regards, >>Vassil K. >> >> >>