From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars Date: 31 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <3701ae58.23032248@news.yale.edu> References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl> <796m95$eq2@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <375c0ea6.1954957123@news.wxs.nl> <79fo99$qkl@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36effb24.440413110@news.yale.edu> <7cp58m$2de@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36fac983.6248364@news.yale.edu> <3701ad7a.22810790@news.yale.edu> Organization: Yale University Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang On Wed, 31 Mar 1999 05:09:19 GMT, cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) wrote: >On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:41:45 GMT, cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) >wrote: > >>On 17 Mar 1999 21:02:14 GMT, e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil >>Karloukovski) wrote: >> >>>In article <36effb24.440413110@news.yale.edu>, cluster.user@yale.edu says... >>>>Vassil Karloukovski wrote: >>> >>>>>- 976 AD - a short reign of car Roman Shishman, the second son of Peter. >>>>> 976 was the year of the mouse ("somor" in the nominalia, "sh@shi" in >>>>> chuvash, probably from another bulgar form - "s@sel"), and "man" means >>>> >>>>*sh*@*sh*i is related to turkic sIc,g~an (in some sIc,qan og~uz >>>>sIc,an) sIc,= means to defacate (-g~an, og~uz -an participle suffix). >>>>(chuvash etym. dict.) >>>> >>>>> "a season, month" in pamirian, thus supposedly leading to "Shishman". >>>> >>>>I have wondered at this name. there was another shishman, of coman >>>>origin, much later. >>> >>> >>>the last dynasty of the Second kingdom (XII-XIV cc.) was that of the Shishmans >>>(the last car Ivan Shishman - beheaded on 03.06.1395 by the ottoman turks) and an article (enc. of islam II, I think) described him as "a coman bigwig" - and "shishman" (< $I$man < sI$man), in turkish "fat", but possibly "big" is truely an appropriate name for a "bigwig". >>>for it indeed kumanic origin is proposed. However, I am not sure kuman influence >>>can be claimed as early as 976. >> >>how about pecheneg? works just as well. any common (-z) turkic language would do. > >this is the reply I recieved from vassil karloukovski: > >================= > >I cannot say much more. There were contacts with Pechenegs since >Simeon (early Xth c.) when they attacked together the Magyars. But why >and would somebody from the second generation after Simeon (Peter's >father) assume a pecheneg name, I don't know. The pechenegs settled in >N, NE Bulgaria later, after it was subjugated by the Byzantines in the >beginning of the XI c. > >================= just guessing - marriage with a pecheneg woman? I would say unlikely to be a loan from tu"rku"t, just can't be a cognate with oghuric. if this name is discussed in an another article I would be interested (and I'll keep looking for one). > >> >>> >>> 976 is rather late, with possible coman, >>>>pecheneg etc. influence. $i$man < sI$man means "fat" in -z turkic >>>>(if so, it can't be oghur). >>>... >> >