From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User)
Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars
Date: 31 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <3701ad7a.22810790@news.yale.edu>
References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl> <796m95$eq2@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <375c0ea6.1954957123@news.wxs.nl> <79fo99$qkl@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36effb24.440413110@news.yale.edu> <7cp58m$2de@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36fac983.6248364@news.yale.edu>
Organization: Yale University
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang

On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:41:45 GMT, cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User)
wrote:

>On 17 Mar 1999 21:02:14 GMT, e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil
>Karloukovski) wrote:
>
>>In article <36effb24.440413110@news.yale.edu>, cluster.user@yale.edu says...
>>>Vassil Karloukovski wrote:
>>
>>>>- 976 AD - a short reign of car Roman Shishman, the second son of Peter. 
>>>>  976 was the year of the mouse ("somor" in the nominalia, "sh@shi" in 
>>>>  chuvash, probably from another bulgar form - "s@sel"), and "man" means 
>>>
>>>*sh*@*sh*i is related to turkic sIc,g~an (in some sIc,qan og~uz
>>>sIc,an) sIc,= means to defacate (-g~an, og~uz -an participle suffix).
>>>(chuvash etym. dict.)
>>>
>>>>  "a season, month" in pamirian, thus supposedly leading to "Shishman".
>>>
>>>I have wondered at this name. there was another shishman, of coman
>>>origin, much later.
>>
>>
>>the last dynasty of the Second kingdom (XII-XIV cc.) was that of the Shishmans 
>>(the last car Ivan Shishman - beheaded on 03.06.1395 by the ottoman turks) and
>>for it indeed kumanic origin is proposed. However, I am not sure kuman influence 
>>can be claimed as early as 976.
>
>how about pecheneg? works just as well.

this is the reply I recieved from vassil karloukovski:

=================

I cannot say much more. There were contacts with Pechenegs since
Simeon (early Xth c.) when they attacked together the Magyars. But why
and would somebody from the second  generation after Simeon (Peter's
father) assume a pecheneg name, I don't know. The pechenegs settled in
N, NE Bulgaria later, after it was subjugated by the Byzantines in the
beginning of the XI c. 

=================

>
>>
>> 976 is rather late, with possible coman,
>>>pecheneg etc. influence. $i$man < sI$man means "fat" in -z turkic
>>>(if so, it can't be oghur).
>>...
>