From: e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil Karloukovski) Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars Date: 17 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <7cp58m$2de@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl> <796m95$eq2@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <375c0ea6.1954957123@news.wxs.nl> <79fo99$qkl@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36effb24.440413110@news.yale.edu> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, UK Mime-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang In article <36effb24.440413110@news.yale.edu>, cluster.user@yale.edu says... >Vassil Karloukovski wrote: >>- 976 AD - a short reign of car Roman Shishman, the second son of Peter. >> 976 was the year of the mouse ("somor" in the nominalia, "sh@shi" in >> chuvash, probably from another bulgar form - "s@sel"), and "man" means > >*sh*@*sh*i is related to turkic sIc,g~an (in some sIc,qan og~uz >sIc,an) sIc,= means to defacate (-g~an, og~uz -an participle suffix). >(chuvash etym. dict.) > >> "a season, month" in pamirian, thus supposedly leading to "Shishman". > >I have wondered at this name. there was another shishman, of coman >origin, much later. the last dynasty of the Second kingdom (XII-XIV cc.) was that of the Shishmans (the last car Ivan Shishman - beheaded on 03.06.1395 by the ottoman turks) and for it indeed kumanic origin is proposed. However, I am not sure kuman influence can be claimed as early as 976. 976 is rather late, with possible coman, >pecheneg etc. influence. $i$man < sI$man means "fat" in -z turkic >(if so, it can't be oghur). ... >>- Peter Deljan, a man who claimed to be from the royal bulgarian family >> staged an uprising again the byzantines and proclaimed himself car in >> 1041 AD. 1040 was the year of the snake ("dilom" in the nominalia, "dilan" > >I don't think there is a "dilan" in modern languages. it is a >reconstructed form, yIlan (turkic) < *dIlan , based on dilom >in the nominalia. Dobrev has "the central asian cumandin (?) word DILAN". the -m form may have come about in the >document due to analogy with the ordinals. > >> for some central asian peoples), so "Deljan" was probably a corrupted >> form of "dilan", "dilom". >>- 1257 AD - ascension of car Constantine Assen, with a third name "Tih". >> 1257 was the year of the horse in the bulgar cyclic calendar ("teku" in >> the nominalia, "tiha" for "little horse" in chuvash). > >chuvash tixa < *tayxa < tay + qa, turkic ta:y = colt, pony, -qa >perhaps dimunitive or an ending in animal names. tay a l.w. in persian >and other languages. (chuvash etym. dict., clauson, doerfer) + the estonian "teku", ishkashimi "taj-ak", lezgin "degi", dargin "teku" (donkey). The pamirian "taj-ak" is closer to the bulgar "teku" than the persian "taj, tej" is. Further parallel is the sanscrit "tak" (to run, to race). One cannot claim all these forms are loan-words from turkic. The word, Dobrev thinks, is much older. ... >>The point is that in the nominalia between Kuber and his son Asparuh there >>reigned for three years one Bezmer, who was nobody else but the older brother >>of Asparuh - Batbajan. And Bezmer started to rule in the year of shegor - the >>year of the bull. > >yes, likely. shegor < turk. sIg~Ir + the lezgin "ceg" (wild buffalo), the avaro-andij "zig", the jagnobi "sheg" (cow) [1], the sarikoli "z^ew" (cow) [2], "shegor" (bull); the sanscrit "s'akvara" (bull), "s'ikara" (holy)... [1] M. Anfreev, Materialy po etnografii Jagnoba, Dushanbe, 1970, p. 58 [2] Pahalina, Sarykol'sko-russkij slovar', T. M., 1971, p. 261 >>A side-issue here is the Dobrev detects a 28-years cyclic calendar and the >>same practice of attaching the name of the cyclic year to the crown name >>for some assyrian kings. And this is how he explains the incorporation of >>the nominalia into the book of the kings and the (self)calling there of >>the bulgar khans as "assyrian kings". Supposedly that was how the bulgars >>viewed themselves, as followers of some older tradition (?). >I find this extremely unlikely. the association in the nominalia >might be to give some biblical pedigree to the bulghars. Ok, but then we have the bronze Pliska rosette with seven rays and the names of seven celestial bodies shortened to two runes on them - Shar (Sun), San (Moon), Bja (Mars), Hja (Mercury), Uo (Jupiter), Non (Venus), and Kha (Saturn), and they apparently have near-eastern parallels. >the calender seems to be of chinese origin. or middle-eastern - saka, assyrian. I will post more about the calendar in a next letter. ... >>>doerfer disagrees with turkish pars being a loan from perisan pa:rs >>>(also ba:rs in per.). instead he considers the persian word a loan >>>from turkic. in pers. it seems to mean "ounce" or sometimes cheetah. >>>however, the resemblance with greek pardalis, pardos (latin pardus) is >>>noted. persian has somewhat similar sounding names: babr for tiger and >>>palang for leopard. my guess is that the word is extermely old and >>>hence similar, rather than a relatively recent loan. >> >>Yes, I don't see any reason to connect the bulgar name of Boris/Baris with >>the similar turkic name(s). >that is not what I meant! the extra "I" in tatar avoids a consonant >cluster, it is cognate with turkic. I said it may not be a loan from >iranian, but cognate with it in the very distant past. Ok. Then we will have a (questionable) turkic etymology for _one_ name in the long list of bulgar names: Omurtag, Anzi, Asparuh (variants: Isperih, Ispor), Bat-bajan/Bezmer, Batoja, Vineh, Boris, Venda, Dizeng, Kubrat (variants: Kurt, Hovratos, Hudbaad), Krum, Gostun, Hinialon (kutrigur), Kardam, Kuber, Magotin, Buzan, Marmais, Rasate, Sondoke, Silke, Sinion (utigur), Ohsi, Ostro, Zabergan (kutrigur), Sabin, Sigricis, Sevar, Sivin, Labas, Isbul, Kormisosh, Assen, Sandilh (utigur), Eshach, Mostich, Nivelon, Ohsun, Negun, Drist@r, Tervel, Heten, Ziezi, Vanand, Vstam, Tarasij, Toktu, Alusian, Labas, Oshi, Praksa, Tvirem, Tuk, Umor, Tiradin, Karan, Sigrich, Cuk, Zenti, Doks, Bila, Alcek, Dokum... How many of them sound turkic? Because for most of them Dobrev offers middle- eastern parallels. Regards, Vassil K.