From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: The Bulgars are Bulgars (Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars) Date: 22 Feb 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <36d0a349.273703124@news.yale.edu> References: <36ca073a.16343620@news.yale.edu> <36cca3ed.14676934@news.yale.edu> <36ccb13d.18084634@news.yale.edu> <7ap23l$klu@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> Organization: Yale University Newsgroups: sci.lang On 21 Feb 1999 13:35:49 GMT, e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil Karloukovski) wrote: >In article <36ccb13d.18084634@news.yale.edu>, cluster.user@yale.edu says... > >>as for old bulgarian aside, from the fact some words are seen >>in turkic I have suspicions with these: >... >>> IMAET - a trustee, in the Imaet - a trustee, a >>> expression ZHUPAN I IMAET guardian (Pamirian) >>> GEORGE >> >> >>imaet (pamirian) sounds like `ar. 'ama:na(t) (putting into >> trust) >> >>if so, the old bulgarian word must be something else. > > >This word IMAET comes from a cyrillic inscription (on the walls of >a rock church) which mixes slavic and bulgar words: > > ZHUPAN I IMAET GEORGE ONC TEBE TAM ESTEK KRAIN I REZHET. > >Dobrev translates it as > THE ZHUPAN AND GUARDIAN GEORGE PROMISES YOU EIGHTY PIECES OF GOLD > AND SO MUST BE IT!, > >ESTEK (eighty), KRAIN (gold pieces), REZHET (it may be!), ONC, ZHUPAN >and IMAET being iranian (pamirian) words according to him. Somebody for the etymology he gives, it looks suspicious - it is worth checking if the word is old or a recent loan in pamirian. >else could probably offer another, more slavic-like interpretation. > >... >>> Volga Bulgar word Closest analogies >> >>> >>> KHALDZHA - the lakes near Khalidzh - an inlet, a pool, >>> the summer palace of the a lake in some Pamirian >>> king of the Volga Bulgars languages >>> Almus in 921 AD. >> >> >>xali:*dj* is found in arabic (gulf, thus inlet). if that >>is the word, then xal*dj*a must come from somewhere else. > > >KHALDZHA is mentioned by Ibn-Fadlan: "And when we met the king, we >found he had stopped for a rest and temporary residence in the so >called Khaldzha, in fact this region was situated between three >lakes - one small and two big ones, whose bottoms are unreachable. >Between this place and the enormous river that flows towards the >country of the khazars and is known under the name of Atil (Volga), >the distance was one farsah." > >Could it be that "Khaldzha" was Ibn-Fadlan's own translation of the >name of the place - "The Lakes", "Lake district", or something similar? I doubt it! there is no such word in arabic. it's just the etymology that is suspicious. the turkic etymology *might* be from ko":l (lake) + -*ch*e (diminutive suffix, happens to be found in iranian as well). I don't know how ko":l is found in -r turkic, but I know that at least some o": might be rendered as a: or sound like it. or ... I don't know. > > >Regards, >Vassil K. >