From: "Stephan Nikolov" Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars Date: 16 Feb 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <7acch1$f2k$1@news.ox.ac.uk> References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl> <796m95$eq2@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <375c0ea6.1954957123@news.wxs.nl> <79fo99$qkl@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <79skrj$u81@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <79vl9f$dub@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <7a05ai$45s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36c4bdd2.67559906@news.yale.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@ox.ac.uk X-Trace: news.ox.ac.uk 919188833 15444 163.1.171.102 (16 Feb 1999 18:13:53 GMT) Organization: Ste Peter's College, Oxford NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Feb 1999 18:13:53 GMT Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang Cluster User wrote in message <36c4bdd2.67559906@news.yale.edu>... >>As for the wolf story, Dobrev might eventually turn correct although this > > >>story is not unknown for other people than the "Iranians" either. It seems >>that the Hsiung-nus had the same legend (she-wolf nursed an abandoned infant >>at the time when a crow was soaring above him (I have always thought the the >>Bulgarian poet Hr. Botev was a genius. Well, he certainly is;). Note also: >>"The origin of Chingis qayan (y here substitutes for the gamma sound) was a >>bluish wolf which was born having [his] destiny from Heaven above. His spouse >>was a fallow doe" (Cf. Cleaves (transl), The Secter History of the Mongols, >>p. 1). >I gather that the emphasis is on the doe according to dobrev The emphasis is on either doe or wolf, as I read it. But the either case has much broader pattern. I am very reluctant to go for "origins". The sources (liguistic data as well, as I can see from this discusian) are far from decisive. OI believe that we can trace the history back to a mixture of Altaic / Iranian features, very heavily influenced by the Turks. And also, there is a good deal of differences between the danubian Bulgars, those in Italy and the Volga Bulgars, that I think that the ethnogenesis in say, 6th c., was still in progress. Even if there had been some "original" Turkic or Iranian Bulgars in the begging (say 1st - 3rd c.) their "ethnic" (in the strict sense of the word) impact on the 7th c. Bulgars would have been far from decisive. Moreover, the successful clans impose their mythological origins on those who accept their authority and this makes the whole story even more confusing. I am afraid, that this my understanding is quite far from Dobrev's ideas. But maybe that's for good. ;) Stephan