From: "H.M.Hubey" Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars Date: 04 Feb 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <36B96349.6014888D@montclair.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b61035.22226830@news.yale.edu> <797ik4$jo4@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36B7C8ED.F19FB4AC@earthlink.net> <36B7D5D1.283A0970@montclair.edu> <36b8cb86.75458723@news.yale.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com X-Trace: /f5BwvRlxD8fzxRULxQqqY8v1iFIb/dZGReGzE0jcEs= Organization: Montclair State University Mime-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: hubeyh@montclair.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Feb 1999 09:02:29 GMT Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang Cluster User wrote: > > > OK this is accepted. however, not all common turkic y- represents *d-, > it represents many other sounds, including y- and d-, which are > preserved in chuvash and correspond to mongolian and tungus. > > >In many cases the Sumerian words are closer to s, or sh and are thus > > than they are not closer to d-, which you point out exists until > relatively recently! There was probably one branch of d-bolgaric until relatively recently. The runic writings in the CAucasus seem to date from after the time of the Huns' withdrawal to the steppes. These are the Kara Bulgars. Yes, but the 'd' exists in words like 'der' which is much closer to the Sumer substrate. And some of the 's' sounds in Sumer substrate are also seen in Chuvash as sibilants and Kipcak as c, or j. > >in the North CAucasus have proven it. The words, dilom, daga, der, etc > >do show up in d-bolgaric. One cannot make strong statements regarding > >language of people using archeaology. Most people who write on this > >have no idea of the latest developments. > > it's not that new. menges talks about these in 1947. Menges mentions daga, and der? Which book? > >There is no evidence for Bulgaric anywhere except the west. The other > > many characteristics of -r turkic are shared by mongolian and tungus. > including d-. on the other hand comparison with japanese gives a -z > like sound for the phoneme denoted by *r2 (miller et al). So what? The general reasoning in both DNA and language is that whichever region has the greatest variation must be the original homeland. why is it used everywhere except when it comes to Turkic? > > >Turkic language which is far off from others Khaladj is also in the > >west. > > it is not unusual for isolated languages to keep archaic > characteristics even if they are far removed from their ancestral > origin. besides khaladj is a -z language and their presence in the > region is attributed to known migrations. There aren't that many of them so I don't see how it could have been recorded. There is no record that I know of that shows the initial *h in common Turkic. > turkic r is lightly trilled and thus in historical times one sees > examples of its disappearing. this does not neccessarily apply to the > phoneme denoted by *r2 ( > z). The question is if z-Turkic was archaic and Chuvash a result of recent change to r. > >So it is pointless to try to prove that z-turkic became r-turkic via > > don't be silly. this is a fine issue and scholars have been examining > this problem for some time. you can't just dismiss it so easily. Nobody is dismissing it easily. Until recently the Tuna data was not around. As long as that did not exist, the linguists were happy attributing half the Turkic words to Iranian. It will still be possible, of course, in continuing to attribute Turkic words to some other IE language, like Tocharian, Hittite etc. This is not a science, but more of an art form with lots of politics backing it up. -- Best Regards, Mark -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= hubeyh@montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=