From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars Date: 03 Feb 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <36b8cb86.75458723@news.yale.edu> References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b61035.22226830@news.yale.edu> <797ik4$jo4@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36B7C8ED.F19FB4AC@earthlink.net> <36B7D5D1.283A0970@montclair.edu> Organization: Yale University Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang On Tue, 02 Feb 1999 23:51:29 -0500, "H.M.Hubey" wrote: >Robert character wrote: >> >> The Hubey character also made a reference to there being evidence >> of Turkic peoples on the Volga as early as the 2nd century B.C., if I >> recall correctly. If so, this wouldn't have been the original component >> of the Bulgars, who, as you know, have been archaeologically traced to > >Doerfer's reconstruction of ProtoTurkic has *d > *c > c > y. OK this is accepted. however, not all common turkic y- represents *d-, it represents many other sounds, including y- and d-, which are preserved in chuvash and correspond to mongolian and tungus. >In many cases the Sumerian words are closer to s, or sh and are thus than they are not closer to d-, which you point out exists until relatively recently! >closer in sound to c. There is evidence for d-bolgaric. Runic writings a few other bits of unambiguous data also point to d- in old -r turkic. one does not have to invoke the origin pf the name of the ural river. >in the North CAucasus have proven it. The words, dilom, daga, der, etc >do show up in d-bolgaric. One cannot make strong statements regarding >language of people using archeaology. Most people who write on this >have no idea of the latest developments. it's not that new. menges talks about these in 1947. > >There is no evidence for Bulgaric anywhere except the west. The other many characteristics of -r turkic are shared by mongolian and tungus. including d-. on the other hand comparison with japanese gives a -z like sound for the phoneme denoted by *r2 (miller et al). >Turkic language which is far off from others Khaladj is also in the >west. it is not unusual for isolated languages to keep archaic characteristics even if they are far removed from their ancestral origin. besides khaladj is a -z language and their presence in the region is attributed to known migrations. >Furthermore we see the r disappearing in Central Asia from the first >time >we see the writing. Instead of "ersem" today the languages are "esem". turkic r is lightly trilled and thus in historical times one sees examples of its disappearing. this does not neccessarily apply to the phoneme denoted by *r2 ( > z). >So it is pointless to try to prove that z-turkic became r-turkic via don't be silly. this is a fine issue and scholars have been examining this problem for some time. you can't just dismiss it so easily. >rhotacization. All the evidence points in the other direction. Turks (or your arguments are irrelevant. >at least one of their ancestors) got to Asia late. The problem is that >historically and even today, "turkic" is identified with Mongoloid >peoples and hence is always put beyond the Altays. > >> the Pamirs during this period. As you mention above, it seems they were >> turkicized on the Volga by an existing population as they were >> slavicized on the Danube. >> >> Robert > >-- >Best Regards, >Mark >-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >hubeyh@montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=