From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars Date: 01 Feb 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <36b60e6a.21767850@news.yale.edu> References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl> Organization: Yale University Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang On Mon, 01 Feb 1999 16:22:19 GMT, mcv@wxs.nl (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) wrote: >On 1 Feb 1999 14:37:56 GMT, e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil >Karloukovski) wrote: > >>The evidence for an iranian influence >>on the Mari agricultural terminology is massive. It would be too far-fetched >>to suppose they were transmitted by some -r turkic migration as almost all of >>the Mari words for the cereals and other cultures have (specifically) pamirian >>cognates: >> >> culture Mari Pamirian >> >> wheat shidan zindan, shedim (Shugnani, Sarikoli) vs. the old iranian GANTUMA >> barley shozh chushch (Shugnani, Sarikoli) vs. the old iranian KASAKA >> rye urzha jurzhājn - millet (Shugnani, Sarikoli) >> hemp kāne kām (Ishkashimi, Wakhi) >> flax jeten/kheten ketenek >> pepper purājs murch (Shugnani, Sarikoli) >> peppermint purtnājk pudina (Ishkashimi, Wakhi) >> wallnut puksh khuvz, fuvz (Shugnani, Sarikoli) >> dock cikura shukri, shiiko >> sorrel shinchalash shilka >> pumpkin kavun kafu, kadu (Shugnani, Sarikoli) >> mulberry tut tut (Ishkashimi, Wakhi) >> peas kushsho krosh >> >> ploughing kuralash kuram - Tadzhik >> bread s(h)ājkār zegar, zgara - Pashto, >> ... > >Of course Uralic peoples must have been in contact with Iranians >for almost as long as we can recognize Iranian as a separate >branch of Indo-European, roughly the second millennium BC. The >Iranian borrowings in Mari could have entered the language at any >time since that time until the predominant languages in the >steppe became Turkic and the Iranian languages became limited to >a few isolated enclaves (Ossetic in the Caucasus, Yaghnobi in >Central Asia), roughly the first millennium AD. agreed. the volga-bulgar inscriptions and chuvash also show a strong iranian influence, indicating that at that period they, the -r turkic population, had been around for a long time. > >It would be interesting to compare the Mari borrowings (as well >as the Ugric (Khanty-Mansi), Permic (Udmurt-Komi) and Mordvin >ones) with reconstructed (East-)Iranian and with other modern and >ancient East Iranian languages like Ossetic and Yaghnobi, or >Sogdian, Bactrian and Saka-Khotanese. > >======================= >Miguel Carrasquer Vidal >mcv@wxs.nl >Amsterdam