From: e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil Karloukovski)
Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars
Date: 30 Jan 1999 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <78utc2$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk>
References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <36AC3460.856801F6@earthlink.net> <36ae814d.4306061@news.yale.edu> <78pov2$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0d1b1.748416@news.yale.edu>
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In article <36b0d1b1.748416@news.yale.edu>, cluster.user@yale.edu says...
>On 28 Jan 1999 13:33:22 GMT, e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil Karloukovski) wrote:

...
>>On leaving Bashkiria and entering Volga Bulgaria Ibn Fadlan stops mentioning
>>any Turks. He speaks only about 'bulgars' and 'saqaliba', and to him these terms 
>>indeed seem to be interchangable, equivalent (?).

>because those in the east are -z turkic, and also the ones that had
>participated in the confederation of the "turk," and were going under
>that name when arabs had first entered central asia. -z turkic, or
>common turkic, was at the time was differentiated from -r turkic,
>whereas the rest were relatively similar to each other. however, it
>seems that authors more familiar with old (-z) turkic or speaking it
>as their native language caught on to the relationship.


I still don't see how the evidence (supposedly correct) of later authors could
be applied to refute an earlier evidence. There are several Volga Bulgar words 
recorded accidentally by Ibn-Fadlan and others - 
  AVUS - 'wax', 
  BELUVIK - 'monument', 
  DALAT - the name of the valuable pelts in which the taxes has been paid, 
  KHADANK - 'a type of tree', 
  KHALANZH - 'tree with a valuable wood', 
  KHALDZHA - the lake region near the king's summer palace, etc. 

and these words have perfect eastern-iranian or eastern-caucasian cognates:
  the eastern-caucasian AVUS - 'wax'
  the pamirian BEL'WIK - 'to remember',
  DALAT - 'leather' (eastern caucasian), 
  DALA - 'valuable pelts of marten or sable' (pamirian)
  KHADANK - 'poplar', KHADA - 'lime-tree' (pamirian)
  KHALANDZH - 'a type of oak', KHALANDZHA - 'chestnut-tree' (pamirian), 
  KHALIDZH - 'inlet, pool, lake' in some pamirian languages, etc.


Furthermore, Ibn-Fadlan's story contains other hints to the fact that the 
Volga Bulgars were recent newcomers to these lands and that they had come 
from the south. For example, his observation about the sour apples - 
 "I saw that they (the Bulgars) have apples - quite green and very sour, 
  their taste was like that of the vinegar used by the maidens. That is 
  why they were called maiden apples".

He has probably recorded the rather unsuccessful attempt to cultivate some
southern variety of apples brought to the Volga region.

The same thing with the strange and ineffective way they stuck to for 
storing the grain production -
 "...grain, which is quite bad, black and stinking, and they don't have rooms
 for storing their grain. They dig wells and bury the food there. In several
 days time it is spoiled, it changes its taste, becomes smelly and cannot be
 used anymore."

The burying of the grain in pits is the traditional way of storing it in the
arid southern regions. In NE Bulgaria (Dobrudzha) such pits are called KHUMBA,
in the Pamirs the same pits are called KHUMB. Ibn-Fadlan has recorded the same
tradition which, however, turned out unsuitable for the damp Middle Volga climate.


>>Indeed, Bulgars and Turks are mentioned as living in the north-western Caucasus
>>in Armenian sources but, again, as in the case of Ibn-Fadlan, they are clearly
>>differentiated. 
...
>>The 'Onoghontor-blkar (immigrants)' here are most probably the Unogundurs/Unogurs,
>
>and there is good reason to believe these were -r turkic.


That would be strange. The Unogundurs of Asparukh were those who came to the 
Balkans and who left all these inscriptions written in a 'strange' language.
Is there any epigraphical evidence?

Regards,
Vassil Karloukovski