From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars Date: 28 Apr 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <3727563a.60763773@news.yale.edu> References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl> <796m95$eq2@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <375c0ea6.1954957123@news.wxs.nl> <79fo99$qkl@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <37228395.105363334@news.yale.edu> <7g6dev$tdu@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> Organization: Yale University Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang Vassil Karloukovski wrote: >In article <37228395.105363334@news.yale.edu>, cluster.user@yale.edu says... >>On Sat, 24 Apr 1999 21:31:09 -0400, "H.M.Hubey" wrote: > >... >>>> if wakhi, etc. c,@rbu -> bulg. chorbadzhi, chorbadzhija (master, boss; rich >>>> man), then Dobrev probably had in mind another word char, which already fell >>>> off use in the 19th c. >>> >>>I think chorbadji is from Ottoman. It was probably a title left over >> >>yes. > > >Well, I checked two turkish-english dictionaries. The first meaning is >indeed >"maker/seller of soup (chorba)". But after that for "chorbadzhi" there is: > "(hist.) Christian noble in Turkish towns; (hist.) colonel of the >Janissaries; > (jok.) a non-Muslim; (sl.) boss, master". there is also the now obsolete meaning of "the official reciever and entertainer of guests in a village or town" (that is reasonebly connected woth distributing soup). this and the janissary custom probably led to the slang meaning of "boss" or village notable. > >The structure of the bulg. society in the Ottoman empire was quite simple: >peasants (say, >95% of the population), craft guilds (the so called esnaf) >in the towns. + each village had one or more rich, distinguished people - >the chorbadzhii who, together with the local priest, represented the >community >before the authorities. The chorbadzhii were the highest representatives one >could get on a local level (no traces of aristocracy has survived in >Bulgaria). > >So, unless the wakhi "ch@rbu" (a minor village official) is also from >ottoman turkish, >I don't see why it and the bulg. "chorbadzhi" couldn't be connected directly. > there is the suffix -ci (i.e. -dzhii) which is the osman form (in this particular position) of the turkic suffix -c,i - the last form being also traceable to danubebulghar. "che@rbu"dzhi wouldn't make sense, as the first element being already a title wouldn't take an occupational suffix (words like "kIralcI" - with kIral, kral from slavic - mean "supporter of the king" or "royalist"). furthermore the word makes sense in turkish and the menaing probably evolved as I outlined. an interesting note - and this may be or may be related to related to what dobrev had in mind is a turkic title c,o:r (the -o- is confirmed from tibetan script) apparently above a beg. it seems to have fallen out if use after the 9th century or so (see clauson). its survival in the pamirs is possible. probabaly not connected with tsar - no examples given for the west among others. the dictionary is the latest redhouse. > >Regards, >Vassil K. > >>>from the olden days, like subashi (water-chief). But then is "chorba" >>>Turkic? >> >>no. > > > > >