From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User)
Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars
Date: 21 Apr 1999 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <371e5362.14471999@news.yale.edu>
References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl> <796m95$eq2@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <375c0ea6.1954957123@news.wxs.nl> <79fo99$qkl@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3718c0d8.988421@news.yale.edu> <7fhjus$h91@cpca3.uea.ac.uk>
Organization: Yale University
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang


apprarently dobrev recently came up with some "pamirian" word CHAR,
with which according to dobrev until recently (until the 19th c.)
these people used to denote their highest ruler. he takles this to be
the origin of tsar.

now car i.e. tsar seems to have a solid latin etymology - from caesar
- old russian tsesar' (>ts'sar' > tsar'). caesar (in classical latin
pronounced "kaisar" - hence the german title) became like *ch*esar in
church latin (hence the italian pronounciation and hence the french
thus english).

how was "czar" in old slavonic?

I don't believe him. any thoughts? would the early christrian bulghars
be too proud to merely accpet byzantine "caesar"? or perhaps the use
of the term by the germans (serbian apparently reffers to kaisar as
"tsesar") have increased it's prestige?

lorimer "wakhi grammer, part II) has c,@rbu (with the note c,h ? i.e.
the c, may be aspirated) "a minor village official". then "Cp. Kho.
and Sh. c,h@rbu ,  Bur. c,@rbu, "

there is also - but I can't get an /r/ sound from this:

sog~d. 'y*gh*$y*dh* (so spellled) which represents biruni's (looking 
at the arabic edition) ix$i:d for "the ferghana kings" - *gh* and x
are not well distinguished in the script. (there is also 'aq$i:n for
'asru:$ana(t) kings - wherever that may be, but it is among central
asian iranian places). this goes back old persian x$a:ya*th*i:ya (thus
persian $a:h) tu"rku"t $ad (or $a*dh*) is a loan form iranian (pritsak
says it was bestowed upon the hephthalites by the sogdians and hence
became popular among altaic empires). he was the second in command of
the qag~an - like the beg of the khazars. BUT NO /R/. don't know about
'aq$i:n.


it isn't arabic. anyway arabic does not have *ch*. turkish sometimes
renders arabic *dj* as *ch* - in final position, and occasionally in
others for reasons of sound harmony. but the *dj* is restored when it
takes a suffix. NOT in this position (initially). anyway arabic has
nothing resembling this for "ruler"