From: mithomps@indiana.edu Subject: Re: The Bulgars are Bulgars (Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars) Date: 21 Apr 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <371E38F9.628B3D8@indiana.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <36ca073a.16343620@news.yale.edu> <36cca3ed.14676934@news.yale.edu> <36cca75c.15555467@news.yale.edu> <36cf2980.190197920@news.yale.edu> <36dee7fa.108219411@news.yale.edu> <36e40f21.4849643@news.yale.edu> <7c6hs4$va@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36f6aeef.439178515@news.yale.edu> <7dajnt$ssk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7ei51h$4m5$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <370cf95d.8677457@news.yale.edu> <7en884$1t8@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3712427B.DA4346AA@mbay.net> <371BFC6C.78C466C6@montclair.edu> <371d0834.77559755@news.yale.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Mime-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: sci.lang Cluster User wrote: > On Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:02:52 -0400, "H.M.Hubey" > wrote: > > >Mike Wright wrote: > >> > >> > > old uyghur ku"in, ku"in bitig (bitig "book" < chinese also) > >> [...] > >> > >> What is the Chinese word that "bitig" is supposed to have come from? > > > >I think it comes from something like 'pit' or 'bit' meaning "brush", > >if I recall correctly. > > > yes. I posted it earlier. It's a frequently repeated claim, but it doesn't work phonologically or chronologically. We have the word in approximately that form in the Toba Wei glosses, say from 4th or 5th century. One fellow (I forget whom) with great enthusiasm but little knowledge of Chinese phonological history was the first to propose that etymology. However, at that time the pronunciation in Chinese was still something like [plj@t]. In any case, using the Toba Wei glosses is very brave. If we disregard them and use the old Uighur as the source of the borrowing, we have the problem that at that time in Changan the word was pronounced like [pjEl] or [pjED]; the final t by that date had already spirantized, so that other Uighur borrowings from Chinese with earlier final t at that time have -r. G. Kara suggests instead that biti- is cognate with a Turkic word meaning "to carve," though that has some difficulties as well. Mikael Thompson