From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: The Bulgars are Bulgars (Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars) Date: 12 Apr 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <37125d1d.73029030@news.yale.edu> References: <36ca073a.16343620@news.yale.edu> <36cca3ed.14676934@news.yale.edu> <36cca75c.15555467@news.yale.edu> <36cf2980.190197920@news.yale.edu> <36dee7fa.108219411@news.yale.edu> <36e40f21.4849643@news.yale.edu> <7c6hs4$va@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36f6aeef.439178515@news.yale.edu> <7dajnt$ssk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7ei51h$4m5$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <370e87fa.33003186@news.yale.edu> <370e9c08.38137358@news.yale.edu> <370e9c4b.38204164@news.yale.edu> <7eneea$cm7@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> Organization: Yale University Newsgroups: sci.lang On 10 Apr 1999 11:59:06 GMT, e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil Karloukovski) wrote: >In article <370e9c4b.38204164@news.yale.edu>, cluster.user@yale.edu says... > >... >>>> VER - the year of the Berka - a big snake (Eastern >>>> Dragon Caucasian) >>>> >>>> Waran (Pamirian) > >>>veren < turkic evren "dragon", "firmament (i.e. sky, stars etc.), >>> (also "oven") from evir= to turn around >>>apparently ewren/evren was latter found as a volgabulghar name. >>> >>>either e/v reversal or evren > *o":ren > veren (o": > ve - found or ewiren > *o":ren >>>in -r turkic. > >>can't find it iranian. listed by dobrev for tajik, can't find it. > >it is pamirian - sarikoli. For VERENI of the nominalia: > >WARAN - a gigantic lizard, WARENDAK - long, snake-like [SarIkol'sko- waran is a dialect variant of arabic waral, a monitor lizard (nile, egypt). hence the modern name of the genus varanus. truely large monitors (2.4 - 3m) are found in southeast asia, australia and pacific islands, where the largest is known as the komodo dragon. it was called so because europeans at first thought the animal described by the local people was legendary. varendak (sarikoli distiguishes between w and v) means "dangling, hanging" > russkij slovar'. T.M. Pakhalina, M., 1971, p. 186] >VAIRENI - a dragon (Prakrit), VAIRA - dangerous, VARUNA - the god-protector > of the water, "The Encompasser of the World" [Sanscrit dictionary, A. > McDonell, Oxford, 1976, pp. 270-272] > dobrev also makes a polemic that the word used is not "lun" actually in tu"rku"t and later it was lu: < chin. lu*ng* (apparently the loss of *ng* happened in a middle chinese dialect). kashgari gives na:g or ne:g (the /g/ is fronted) < sans. na:ga "snake", but also used for sueprnatural beings and snake gods. translated by kashagri as "crocodile". luy < lu: apparently was also interpreted by the mongols as "crocodile". large reptiles are unkown in the altaic homeland, so loanwords for these are not surprising. > >Dobrev also had the dardic PEREN (dragon), proto-indian (?) PERAN (large, dobrev also refered to tajik. in the russian tajik dictionary there is "susmori perron" (i.e. su:sma:r-i perra:n or pera:n) for russian "drakon" (i.e. dragon), "zoological". apparently russians refer to a flying lizard as such (said so explicitly in a russian - uzbek dictionary). perra:n (or pera:n) is persian for "flying" and su:sma:r is a faty lizard with a serpentine head (sanskrit s'is'ma:ra ; su:s in persian used for its fat, ma:r is snake in persian) >long), the chuvash VEREM (long), the sumero-accadian UR, JURNU (dragon), chuvash va~ra~m is an expected cognate of common turkic uzun, uzIn. both words are found in the volgabulghar name refered to: ewren awlI wurum alIb (so spelled; or alib). the son of ewren, wurum alib. readily recognisable as common turkic evren og~lI uzun alp (m. turk. og~lu), litt. the son of "dragon", "tall brave". hungarian apparently also has the underlying verb, o''r= (i.e. o":r=) in o''ro"l= (to grind) and o"rve'ny (whirlpool) but here o":is regarded as an internal hungarian development from *ewu" see chuvash studies p. 149-150. >the wide spread of this and other calendar terms of the nominalia pointing >to the ancient chartacter of the cyclic calendar. > well, animal names tend to get around. in this case there seems to be a lot of coincidence at work. > >VK > > >