From: e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars Date: 07 Apr 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <7efi7l$trh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl> <796m95$eq2@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <375c0ea6.1954957123@news.wxs.nl> <79fo99$qkl@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <370296ad.69443734@news.yale.edu> <7dvofs$ai0@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <370a6f59.1892451@news.yale.edu> X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x15.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 139.222.98.206 Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Apr 07 12:14:49 1999 GMT Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.51 [en] (WinNT; I) In article <370a6f59.1892451@news.yale.edu>, cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) wrote: > vassil karloukovski communicated to me: > > >Has anybody linked the khazars on the Caspian with the Khazars in Central > > I don't think so. haza:ra is with an h- not x- (i.e. /kh/). in persian > haza:r means "1000" in new persian (haza:ra:n would be a plural, i.e. > a collective). it is thought to be a translation of turco-mongol > mi*ng* (1000), a unit of turco-mongol military organisation. they are > tradionally the remnants of mongol soldiers, but actually numerous > mongol and turkic tribes seem to have been settled in their region. > > >Afghanistan? The latter is regarded as mongol legacy but couldn't they be > >there earlier. Their mongoloidity should be an argument, the bulgars also > > but it's in asia, their traits could have come from many sources! > > >had similar traits. BTW, there is also a town in the Merv oasis, called > >Burdzhan-(something). > > ??? > > an important pashto speaking tribe is the abda:l (later bestowed with > a different name in honor of dynastic origins).abda:l is traditionally > associated with a man with the dervish rank. nevertheless abdal is > common among turkmens in anatolia, and in the taurus people otherwise > known as gypsies are locally called by that name. so soem scholars > have associated them with the hephthalites. > No, I meant that "burdzhan" was an arabic name for the bulgars. Thus this town of Burzan-dzhirt (today - Bursan-dzhirt) in the oasis of Merv could be translated as "bulgarian town". This fits to the account of Al-Bakuvi that the bulgars (burdzhans) inhabited (before their migration?) fertile southern fields "where there were a lot of grape, figs and plums" [R. Kuzev, Proishozhdenie bashkir, M., 1974, 35-36]. The point was that some islamic authors connect the bulgars and the khazars but say their language wasn't either turkic or persian. The persian At-Tabari wrote in 915 that in 556-571 the turkuts occupied the eastern Northern Caucasus by defeating the khazars and the people "b-n-dzh-r" (belendzher, the pahlavi form of "bulgar" according to V. Gening and A. Khalikov). The danube bulgars are called "burdzhan" by Al-Fazari (772/73 AD). Al-Masudi (20-30's of the X c.) calls the volga bulgars "burdzhans", and the danube - "bulgars". He describes as turkic the nogays, the pechenegs, the badzhards (bashkirs), but not the bulgars. Ibn-Fadlan (921-922) says that the language of the volga bulgars didn't resemble either turkic or slavic, while Istahri, Haukal, Bekri and Jakut find similarities between the khazar and bulgar l-s, but say they didn't resemble either turkic or persian. Abu al-Rashid al-Bakuvi (XV c.) [Kitab talhis al-asar, M., 1971] in an abridged copy of the geographical treaty of Zakharija al-Kazvini (1203-1283) relates that the city of Bolgar (on Volga) was ... at two months journey from Constantinople and that around it lived a multidute of turkic peoples, which indirectly shows that for Al-Bakuvi the bulgars were not a turkic people. Al-Kazvini describes the people of Bolgar as being among those who "believed in Khuda" and run away in the northern countries, where they reached prosperity. Another author - Dimashki, met in Bagdad several bulgars, pilgrims to Mecca. They said to him that they "were born between the turks and the slavs". "Huzhat al-Kulub" of Hamdallah Kazvini (1280-1349) probably points to the region inhabited by the bulgars, khazars before their migration to the west: Kazvini puts Khoresm, Saksin and Bulgar to the east of the Khazar (Caspian) sea, while for Al-Bakuvi Saksin was a "populous town in Khazaria". This evidence could be explained by the assertion of Al-Khvarismi (a persian from Khoresm, who between 836-847 AD drew a geographical map of Central Asia, Caucasus on the basis of older, pre-islamic sources) that the starting point of the khazar migration to the west was Khoresm [Kalinina, T.M., Svedenija rannih uchenIh Arabskogo khalifata, M., 1988] Another account mentioning tribal names similar to "khazar", "bulgar" is provided in one late "Chronicle" of Shah-Mahmud Churas [M., 1976]. The work was composed in 1676/77 and described the mongol state in Jarkand, created in 1514. The region of Kashgar, Jangi-Hissar, Aksu, and Khotan there was called "Little Bukharia". In their advance against Bolor and Badahshan the mongols had to fight certain "(k)hazareans". The hazareans finally acknowledged the mongol supremacy in the fortress of Sarikol, while the local tribe of "bulgachi" was executed. Al-Biruni (973-1048), however, thinks that the language of the volga bulgars was a mixture of khazar and turkic. VK -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own