From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User)
Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars
Date: 31 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <370296ad.69443734@news.yale.edu>
References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl> <796m95$eq2@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <375c0ea6.1954957123@news.wxs.nl> <79fo99$qkl@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36effb24.440413110@news.yale.edu> <7cp58m$2de@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36fac983.6248364@news.yale.edu> <3701ad7a.22810790@news.yale.edu> <3701ae58.23032248@news.yale.edu> <37029532.69064369@news.yale.edu>
Organization: Yale University
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang

On Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:40:31 GMT, cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User)
wrote:

>On Wed, 31 Mar 1999 05:20:50 GMT, cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User)
>wrote:
>
>
>>
>>if this name is discussed in an another article I would be interested
>>(and I'll keep looking for one).
>>
>
> 
>this is what I received from vassil karloukovski:
>
>=========================================
>
>
>     ...           for me there is still a problem. I don't know (and 
>cannot check from here) what is the basis of this Dobrev's claim
>that car Roman was also called Shishman. If Dobrev relies on one 
>recently disclosed stone inscription of car Samuil from  Voden/Edessa 
>in Western Macedonia, then this X c. Shishman is unreliable. 
>
>In the inscription he (Samuil) says that he was a "grandson of the old
>
>Shishman, the kavgan of the inhabitants of T@rnovo". It is thought to
>be a fake!, produced in the XIX c. and it contains a lot of

well, that solves the problem!

>inconsistencies with the modern views on the Bulg. history: "kavgan"?,
>T@rnovo? (T@rnovo became capital only in the XII-th c., in the Second
>Bulg. Kingdom!; Pliska and Preslav were the capitals of the first
>kingdom). The director of the Bulg. National museum of history also
>rejected the authenticity of the Voden inscription on the basis that
>Shishman was a XII-XIII c. Kuman name...

I can understand his objections. it's not an oghuric word.

perhaps upon hearing an objection on linguistic grounds, dobrev came
up with an alternate hypothesis. as I had mentioned this involves in
part another oghuric word (from chuvash). oghuric has /l/ for common
turkic /sh/, but invented a secondary /sh/ from the palatoization of
/s/ (as does mongol).


>
>You (or I) could ask Stephan Nikolov whether the existance of this
>Roman Shishman is confirmed by other accounts.
>
>
>Regards,
>Vassil
> 
>
>
>