From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User)
Subject: Re: The Bulgars are Bulgars (Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars)
Date: 31 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <3701abe4.22404485@news.yale.edu>
References: <36ca073a.16343620@news.yale.edu> <36cca3ed.14676934@news.yale.edu> <36cca75c.15555467@news.yale.edu> <36cf2980.190197920@news.yale.edu> <36dee7fa.108219411@news.yale.edu> <36e40f21.4849643@news.yale.edu> <7c6hs4$va@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36f6aeef.439178515@news.yale.edu> <7dajnt$ssk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3701a898.21560622@news.yale.edu>
Organization: Yale University
Newsgroups: sci.lang

On Wed, 31 Mar 1999 04:59:59 GMT, cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User)
wrote:

>On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:53:37 GMT, e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk wrote:
>
>>In article <36f6aeef.439178515@news.yale.edu>, cluster.user@yale.edu says...
>>
>>...
>>....            Thank you for the other words, it seems you are going to
>>invalidate 30-40% of the words in the list... :-))  Although it doesn't mean
>>there couldn't be earlier, iranian forms for these words in pre-ottoman
>>bulgarian.
>
>for some of the words, perhaps yes - whetehr or not bulghar was
>iranian is a different matter. a few of them, like meyxa^ne (a place
>for drinking) belong to a different culture.

BTW in spite of religious prohibitions - generally enforced by the
state - muslims did go to these "tavernas" as can be seen from evliya
c,elebi's seyahatname (travelogue). he seesm to have been a frequent
patron of these places as well.

>
>if you mean that could they have represented earlier iranain forms, I
>would say no to the overwhelming majority of the words i picked out.
>soem of them are turkish of turkic origin. some are of arabic origin.
>some show clearly new persian - west iranian and recent - features
>(much the same way one would reject the oghuric origin of these
>words).  most show pronounciations and meanings that show the distinct
>route of ottoman turkish.

this is a problem acknowledged by scholars as well for hungarian,
which has a much richer oghuric vocabulary but less ottoman vocabualry
(also it has a potentially middle turkic / qypchaq vocabulary).

>
>>
>>
>>Regards,
>>Vassil K.
>>
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