From: e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil Karloukovski) Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars Date: 20 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <7d01eu$1ff@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl> <796m95$eq2@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <375c0ea6.1954957123@news.wxs.nl> <79fo99$qkl@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36f29d1f.612930277@news.yale.edu> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, UK Mime-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang In article <36f29d1f.612930277@news.yale.edu>, cluster.user@yale.edu says... ... >>fine, but this is not the bulghar calender, which is determined >>from recursion to have a twelve year cycle. neither is there a >>claim for dependence on jupiter. > >OK. sorry. jupiter has approximatly a twleve year period, and >apparently the twelve year cycle was based on that. 11.86 years exactly. >this leads me to my next comment. ... >>>Next, Dobrev analyses some composite names of elamite kings (the transcription >>>probably will differ from the english one): > >these are about two millenia before the saka calender, based on the >apparent position of jupiter. now since the apparent position of the >sun shifts with precession (a motion of the earth), yes, like the fact that starting point in the calendar of Ur was Sun in Taurus, where the vernal equinox was some four thousand years ago. I assume that the >apparent poistion of jupiter does too. now it would indeed be >unreasonable to expect their calenders to be following the apparent >position of jupiter two millenia *later*. the chinese calender still >continues because people have forgotten about it, just as contemporary >(Ican't call it "modern") horoscopes depend on the apparent position >of the sun in babylonian times (such things like the "age of aquarius" >refer to the precession phenomenon). The saka's cyclic calculations were also based on the year governed by Aquarius. [The starting year of the bulgar calendar was also probably was that of somor (mouse), as the turkic s@chkan and the chinese shu were, and they correspond to Aquarius too.] Dobrev further remarks that the year somor occurred when Jupiter was in Aquarius, but you touched a problem I was reluctant to go into. The saka era started in March 78 AD (Aries) but Al-Biruni's formula [1] makes it clear that one should go 2.2 years back to January (sun in Aquarius!) 76 AD (Jupiter in Aquarius!) (76 AD was also the year of the mouse) and from there - start calculating which constellation would govern in a given year. Today the winter solstice is in the beginning of Sagittarius, but it was in Aquarius between 2500 BC and 300 BC (the precession phenomenon you mentioned). Furthermore, as the Jupiter's period isn't exactly 12 years, there is one Jupiterian cycle of 988 years during which Jupiter passes through all 12 constellations. The periods in which Jupiter's real motion coincided with its ideal calendar position were: between 636-660 BC, 1624-1648 BC, 2612-2636 BC. And in the chinese variant of the saka calendar the year of 2637 BC was taken as the starting point of the cyclic chronology (it was connected with the legendary emperor Cin Shi-Huandi). As you see, the calendar could well have been around since the time of the assyrians and elamites. [Although in 2637 BC the winter solstice was already not in Aquarius but in Pisces (the year of the wild boar), and Dobrev further speculates there was probably an earlier variant of the cyclic calendar starting in Pisces and not in Aquarius (and that is how in the bulg. folk tradition the New year is celebrated by the slaughter of swines)]. Your earlier question whether Jupiter had any place in the bulgar cyclic calendar - there is this runic inscription which Dobrev reads as: "The moving heavenly bodies are seven. Their ruler is the Sun as well as Jupiter - the master of the time." Furthermore, the first day in the bulgarian folk year is called Eninak, Ininak (God's day, day of the heaven?), and the folk name of Jupiter is Enkul, Jankul (ruler of the heaven?, there are words such as AN (heaven) in the bulgar inscriptions). ===== [1]: "Take the year according to the saka era "shaka-kala" (i.e. determine how many years passed since to coming of the sakas to India - March 78 AD). To this add the quotient of the ratio 8189/3750 (=2.2 years) (i.e. go 2.2 years back). Multiply by 9 and delete by 4, and delete by 27. The quotient of these divisions will give you the constellation Jupiter will be at sunrise, if you start counting from the constellation Dhahishta." Regards, Vassil K.