From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars Date: 19 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <36f29d1f.612930277@news.yale.edu> References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl> <796m95$eq2@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <375c0ea6.1954957123@news.wxs.nl> <79fo99$qkl@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36effb24.440413110@news.yale.edu> <7cpddg$39q@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36f15786.251902035@news.yale.edu> Organization: Yale University Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:45:35 GMT, cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) wrote: >Vassil Karloukovski wrote: > >> >>> >>>the calender seems to be of chinese origin. >> > >fine, the chinese based it on an earlier model, but >the bulghar calender, at least in its nomenclature, >followed the chinese model. more precisly, it was >reconstructed on this basis (especially so for >dobrev's case) > >> >>There is the saka calendar from India which was based on the position Jupiter had >>in the sky at sunrise, in a system of 28 constellations. Every year had a ruling >>constellation called Sal-Ba*j*ai in the saka manuscripts from western China - from >>"sal" (year), and "ba*j*ai" (ruler, commander) (from which was the bulgar title of >>"bagain" BTW). The formula for determining the year in the saka era is given by >>Al-Biruni. The saka names of the constellations are not preserved but there is a >>chinese analogy that reached China in the first century AD. The names there are: >> >> 1. bat (a part of Aquarius); 2. MOUSE (the other part of Aquarius); 3. BULL >> (Capricorn); 4. gryphon (Sagittarius); 5. leopard (another part of Sagittarius); >> 6. TIGER (a part of Scorpio); 7. fox (another part of Scorpio); 8. HARE (a third >> part of Scorpio); 9. badger (Libra); 10. (water) DRAGON (a part of Virgo); >> 11. earth dragon (dragon with scales) (another part of Virgo); 12. worm (Raven?); >> 13. SNAKE (Crater); 14. deer (a part of Hydra); 15. HORSE (another part of Hydra); >> 16. doe (a third part of Hydra); 17. SHEEP (Cancer); 18. tapir (Gemini); >> 19. MONKEY (primate) (Orion); 20. small monkey (another part of Orion); >> 21. raven (a part of Taurus); 22. HEN (another part of Taurus); 23. pheasant (a >> part of Aries); 24. DOG (another part of Aries); 25. wolf (Pisces); 26. piglet >> (Andromede); 27. PIG (a part of Pegasus); 28. swallow (another part of Pegasus). >> > >fine, but this is not the bulghar calender, which is determined >from recursion to have a twelve year cycle. neither is there a >claim for dependence on jupiter. OK. sorry. jupiter has approximatly a twleve year period, and apparently the twelve year cycle was based on that. this leads me to my next comment. > >BTW tiger & fox are intersting as the xakas (< qIrqIz, turkic) >have fox instead of tiger. > >BTW all pre-lemurs, lemurs, monkeys, apes and humans are primates. > >>Capitalised are the twelve zodiacal constellations which appear in the 12-years >>cyclic calendars. The point Dobrev makes is that until the I c. AD the chinese >>didn't name the cyclic years after animals, but after names of objects - ladle, >>cup. etc. The animal names were adopted in the I c., although the old chinese >>system was also preserved. >> >>And the saka calendar was not lunar but solar - the year had twelve months of 30 >>days and 5 festive days at the new year (Al-Biruni). [The bulgar cyclic calendar >>was also solar, although it differed from the saka - it had four seasons of 91 >>days (31 days in the first month, and 30 days in the next two) + 1 festive day >>(the new year).] > >this may be similar to the calender described by kashgari. >the phrase "the month after new year'd day" may even >indicate a festive day, the first day of spring and >the beginning of the year. the year is also divided into >four seasons, three months each. the calender is >clearly solar. > >> >>So, saka's was an example of a solar cyclic calendar different from the chinese >>lunar and the turkic calendars. >> > >I don't think one could single out a single calender >system for all turkic people and I wouldn't be >surprised if the turkut followed the chinese >system. what is consistent is the animal names. > > > >>Next, Dobrev analyses some composite names of elamite kings (the transcription >>probably will differ from the english one): these are about two millenia before the saka calender, based on the apparent position of jupiter. now since the apparent position of the sun shifts with precession (a motion of the earth), I assume that the apparent poistion of jupiter does too. now it would indeed be unreasonable to expect their calenders to be following the apparent position of jupiter two millenia *later*. the chinese calender still continues because people have forgotten about it, just as contemporary (Ican't call it "modern") horoscopes depend on the apparent position of the sun in babylonian times (such things like the "age of aquarius" refer to the precession phenomenon). >> >> - TANRU-huratir - 1960 BC (1) >> - SAMUTVAR-tash - 1790 BC (2) >> - ATTARKIT-tah - 1310 BC (3) >> ... >> - Nallutish-INSHUSHINAK - 1205 BC (4) >> - Shutruk-NAHUNTA - 1185 BC (5) >> - Kutir-NAHUNTA - 1155 BC (6) >> >> >>King (3) reigned 480 years after (2), and both had the common addition to their >>names - "tash", "tah". 480 is exactly 40 cycles of 12 years. >> >>King (5) has the name of "shutruk" which resembles "shupuruk" - a word for the bat >>used in northern india and the pamirs, and "kutir" in (6) resembles the dravidian >>"kuthirai" (horse). And 1185 BC was exactly the year of the mouse, and 1155 - the >>year of the horse in any modern cyclic calendar (chinese, turkic, tibetan). >> >>King (4) also has "nallutish" in his name, and "hannam, nallam" is a dravidian word >>for dragon, and 1205 BC was the year of the dragon. >> >>The same pattern in some assyrian royal names - Tukulti-Ninurta (ascension in 1250 >>BC), and Tukulti-Ninurta II (890 BC). Both ascended to the throne in the year of >>the horse, and in some eastern-caucasian l-s the horse is "tukku, teku" (from >>which probably comes the bulgar word). Another assyrian king - Sinnuishkun, came >>to the throne in 620 BC - the year of the bull. This king had two names - >>Sinnuishkun and Sarak. But "shinna" in chechen is 'ox', "sar" in buduh (east. cauc.) >>is also 'ox'. So the king's name was Shinnu-Ishkun. > >but assyrian distinguishes between s- and *sh*- > >> >>The names of Nabuchodonosor (Nevu-Hadresar) and Semiramide (Samar-Amat) also show >>the same traces. "Nevu" resembles the old-iranian, pamirian words "nehu, nek" > >the -v- was a later development (based on masoretic hebrew) >his name was nabu^ kudurri uSur "nabu^ (a god) protect the >boundary) nabu^ is from the semitic root "to call" > >of the pamiri word (< sans.) na:g is the older from. > >>(dragon), and "samar" - the afghan "zmaraj" (lion). And Nevu-hadresar ascended >>the throne in 604 BC, the year of the dragon, and Semiramide - in 810 BC, the >>year of the tiger/lion. > > >why should assyrians use bits and pieces of caucasian and >pamirian words and leave no record of this calender system >while their actual calender is known??!! > >> >>Dobrev goes further to compare the elamite examples with the case of Mohendjo-Daro - >>twelve constellations with names of gods-animals: god hare, god goat, crocodile, >>lion, horse, scorpion, etc. The conclusion is that cyclic calendars (solar, not >>only lunar as chinese) are quite old, with origins in the middle-east, and that > >the chinese calender is luni-solar. the new year always begins >after the winter solictice. > >the middle east has its own constellations, similar to the >familiar greek ones. > >>the bulgar calendar shouldn't automatically qualified as an offspring of the >>chinese/turkic calendars. >> > >you just said that the chinese calender is a later >development, yet it is the later development that >the bulghar calender follows. if you reject the >chinese calender, the bulghar words could mean >just about anything. > >the best assumption is that the bulghar calender >followed the chinese calender, at least as far >as the nomenclature went. the rest may be interesting >as far as the history of the calender in asia goes, >but I don't see any direct bearing on the bulghars. > >> >>It would be nice if some specialists on assyria, elam comment on these interpretations >>and whether they make any sense. >> >> >>=============== >> >>The analogies with the bulgar cyclic years are: the assyrian "tukulti" for 'horse' > >the dictionary I found has takaltu as an animal name (unspecified) > >>vs. the bulgar "teky"; the assyrian "shinnu" (ox) and the bulgar "shegor" (bull, > >the closest I found is "alap *sh*unu^" for baffaloe, alap (alpu:) for >ox and *sh*unu: for hump. besides tehre are many dissamilarities >between this and the reconstructed bulghar word > >>ox). Also the assyrian "lit" (a calendar term, a period of time) and the bulgar >>word LET (year of ascension) in the nominalia. The latter was incorrectly >>interpreted as being the slavic LETO (year), but then there was the problem >>that in the nominalia *LETO wasn't conjugated as slavic requires. For > >declined. > >>example: >> >> "Isperih - 61 leto. A _LET_ emu verenialem@" >> ("Isperih - 61 years. And his _YEAR_ verenialem@" >> >> This _LET_ didn't make sense in slavic but, nevertheless, the researchers read >>it from slavic and pronounced the authors of the nominalia illiterate. (As they >>did during the "turkic" reading of a half of the entries.) >> >> >>Regards, >>Vassil K. >> >> >> >