From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars Date: 18 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <36f171a5.258589512@news.yale.edu> References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl> <796m95$eq2@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <375c0ea6.1954957123@news.wxs.nl> <79fo99$qkl@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36effb24.440413110@news.yale.edu> <7cpddg$39q@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36f15786.251902035@news.yale.edu> Organization: Yale University Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:45:35 GMT, cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) wrote: >Vassil Karloukovski wrote: > >>> >>>the calender seems to be of chinese origin. >> > >fine, the chinese based it on an earlier model, but >the bulghar calender, at least in its nomenclature, >followed the chinese model. more precisly, it was >reconstructed on this basis (especially so for >dobrev's case) > >> >>There is the saka calendar from India which was based on the position Jupiter had >>in the sky at sunrise, in a system of 28 constellations. Every year had a ruling >>constellation called Sal-Ba*j*ai in the saka manuscripts from western China - from >>"sal" (year), and "ba*j*ai" (ruler, commander) (from which was the bulgar title of >>"bagain" BTW). The formula for determining the year in the saka era is given by >>Al-Biruni. The saka names of the constellations are not preserved but there is a >>chinese analogy that reached China in the first century AD. The names there are: >> >> 1. bat (a part of Aquarius); 2. MOUSE (the other part of Aquarius); 3. BULL >> (Capricorn); 4. gryphon (Sagittarius); 5. leopard (another part of Sagittarius); >> 6. TIGER (a part of Scorpio); 7. fox (another part of Scorpio); 8. HARE (a third >> part of Scorpio); 9. badger (Libra); 10. (water) DRAGON (a part of Virgo); >> 11. earth dragon (dragon with scales) (another part of Virgo); 12. worm (Raven?); >> 13. SNAKE (Crater); 14. deer (a part of Hydra); 15. HORSE (another part of Hydra); >> 16. doe (a third part of Hydra); 17. SHEEP (Cancer); 18. tapir (Gemini); >> 19. MONKEY (primate) (Orion); 20. small monkey (another part of Orion); >> 21. raven (a part of Taurus); 22. HEN (another part of Taurus); 23. pheasant (a >> part of Aries); 24. DOG (another part of Aries); 25. wolf (Pisces); 26. piglet >> (Andromede); 27. PIG (a part of Pegasus); 28. swallow (another part of Pegasus). >> > >fine, but this is not the bulghar calender, which is determined >from recursion to have a twelve year cycle. neither is there a >claim for dependence on jupiter. > >BTW tiger & fox are intersting as the xakas (< qIrqIz, turkic) >have fox instead of tiger. > >BTW all pre-lemurs, lemurs, monkeys, apes and humans are primates. > >>Capitalised are the twelve zodiacal constellations which appear in the 12-years >>cyclic calendars. The point Dobrev makes is that until the I c. AD the chinese >>didn't name the cyclic years after animals, but after names of objects - ladle, >>cup. etc. The animal names were adopted in the I c., although the old chinese >>system was also preserved. >> >>And the saka calendar was not lunar but solar - the year had twelve months of 30 >>days and 5 festive days at the new year (Al-Biruni). [The bulgar cyclic calendar >>was also solar, although it differed from the saka - it had four seasons of 91 >>days (31 days in the first month, and 30 days in the next two) + 1 festive day >>(the new year).] > >this may be similar to the calender described by kashgari. >the phrase "the month after new year'd day" may even >indicate a festive day, the first day of spring and >the beginning of the year. the year is also divided into >four seasons, three months each. the calender is >clearly solar. > >> >>So, saka's was an example of a solar cyclic calendar different from the chinese >>lunar and the turkic calendars. >> > >I don't think one could single out a single calender >system for all turkic people and I wouldn't be >surprised if the turkut followed the chinese >system. what is consistent is the animal names. > > > >>Next, Dobrev analyses some composite names of elamite kings (the transcription >>probably will differ from the english one): >> >> - TANRU-huratir - 1960 BC (1) >> - SAMUTVAR-tash - 1790 BC (2) >> - ATTARKIT-tah - 1310 BC (3) >> ... >> - Nallutish-INSHUSHINAK - 1205 BC (4) >> - Shutruk-NAHUNTA - 1185 BC (5) >> - Kutir-NAHUNTA - 1155 BC (6) >> >> >>King (3) reigned 480 years after (2), and both had the common addition to their >>names - "tash", "tah". 480 is exactly 40 cycles of 12 years. >> >>King (5) has the name of "shutruk" which resembles "shupuruk" - a word for the bat >>used in northern india and the pamirs, and "kutir" in (6) resembles the dravidian >>"kuthirai" (horse). And 1185 BC was exactly the year of the mouse, and 1155 - the >>year of the horse in any modern cyclic calendar (chinese, turkic, tibetan). >> >>King (4) also has "nallutish" in his name, and "hannam, nallam" is a dravidian word >>for dragon, and 1205 BC was the year of the dragon. >> >>The same pattern in some assyrian royal names - Tukulti-Ninurta (ascension in 1250 >>BC), and Tukulti-Ninurta II (890 BC). Both ascended to the throne in the year of >>the horse, and in some eastern-caucasian l-s the horse is "tukku, teku" (from >>which probably comes the bulgar word). Another assyrian king - Sinnuishkun, came >>to the throne in 620 BC - the year of the bull. This king had two names - >>Sinnuishkun and Sarak. But "shinna" in chechen is 'ox', "sar" in buduh (east. cauc.) >>is also 'ox'. So the king's name was Shinnu-Ishkun. > >but assyrian distinguishes between s- and *sh*- > >> >>The names of Nabuchodonosor (Nevu-Hadresar) and Semiramide (Samar-Amat) also show >>the same traces. "Nevu" resembles the old-iranian, pamirian words "nehu, nek" > >the -v- was a later development (based on masoretic hebrew) >his name was nabu^ kudurri uSur "nabu^ (a god) protect the >boundary) nabu^ is from the semitic root "to call" > >of the pamiri word (< sans.) na:g is the older from. > >>(dragon), and "samar" - the afghan "zmaraj" (lion). And Nevu-hadresar ascended >>the throne in 604 BC, the year of the dragon, and Semiramide - in 810 BC, the >>year of the tiger/lion. > > >why should assyrians use bits and pieces of caucasian and >pamirian words and leave no record of this calender system >while their actual calender is known??!! > >> >>Dobrev goes further to compare the elamite examples with the case of Mohendjo-Daro - >>twelve constellations with names of gods-animals: god hare, god goat, crocodile, >>lion, horse, scorpion, etc. The conclusion is that cyclic calendars (solar, not >>only lunar as chinese) are quite old, with origins in the middle-east, and that > >the chinese calender is luni-solar. the new year always begins >after the winter solictice. apparently so described by themselves. the original calender was luanr with the intercalation of a month. I gather that the system go tmopre complex as they sought to keep the calender in step with the zodiacal signs. > >the middle east has its own constellations, similar to the >familiar greek ones. > >>the bulgar calendar shouldn't automatically qualified as an offspring of the >>chinese/turkic calendars. >> > >you just said that the chinese calender is a later >development, yet it is the later development that >the bulghar calender follows. if you reject the >chinese calender, the bulghar words could mean >just about anything. > >the best assumption is that the bulghar calender >followed the chinese calender, at least as far >as the nomenclature went. the rest may be interesting >as far as the history of the calender in asia goes, >but I don't see any direct bearing on the bulghars. > >>