From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User)
Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars
Date: 17 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <36effb24.440413110@news.yale.edu>
References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl> <796m95$eq2@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <375c0ea6.1954957123@news.wxs.nl> <79fo99$qkl@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36eea253.602609867@news.yale.edu> <7co2ei$rn1@cpca3.uea.ac.uk>
Organization: Yale University
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang

Vassil Karloukovski wrote:

>In article <36eea253.602609867@news.yale.edu>, cluster.user@yale.edu says...
>
>>vassil, you also mentioned that to me that dobrev derives boris from
>>"bars," qazan tatar "parIs" "tiger". apparently becasue he ascended
>>the throne on the year  of the tiger. 
>
>
>yes, there was apparently some tradition for the khans/cars to attach to 
>their name the name of the cyclic year in which they were crowned. I will
>mark some examples:
>
>- the name of khan Omurtag who ascended to the throne in 814 AD - the year 
>  of the horse. In the nominalia we have a similar name of an earlier khan -
>  Umor. And TEKU is the bulgar name for horse in the nominalia (besides the 
>  other words for horse - imen shegor, alasha). So that "Omurtag" probably 
>  meant "Omur-tag". 
>
>- 853 AD - the ascension of khan Boris, known also as Bogor, Bogoris. 853 
>  was the year of the tiger, which is "bars, baris" in (volga) tatar.
>
>- 976 AD - a short reign of car Roman Shishman, the second son of Peter. 
>  976 was the year of the mouse ("somor" in the nominalia, "sh@shi" in 
>  chuvash, probably from another bulgar form - "s@sel"), and "man" means 

*sh*@*sh*i is related to turkic sIc,g~an (in some sIc,qan og~uz
sIc,an) sIc,= means to defacate (-g~an, og~uz -an participle suffix).
(chuvash etym. dict.)

>  "a season, month" in pamirian, thus supposedly leading to "Shishman".
>

I have wondered at this name. there was another shishman, of coman
origin, much later. 976 is rather late, with possible coman,
pecheneg etc. influence. $i$man < sI$man means "fat" in -z turkic
(if so, it can't be oghur).

>- 994 AD - ascension of car Samuil, called "Samuil Alasha" in the XVIII c. 
>  history of Paisij. 994 was the year of the horse ("teky", "imen shegor", 
>  "alasha" in bulgar, "lasha" in chuvash).

Michael Thompson has an interesting story concerning alasha, 
it was about russian obtaining the word through the bulghars,
along with the horses.

>
>- Peter Deljan, a man who claimed to be from the royal bulgarian family 
>  staged an uprising again the byzantines and proclaimed himself car in 
>  1041 AD. 1040 was the year of the snake ("dilom" in the nominalia, "dilan" 

I don't think there is a "dilan" in modern languages. it is a
reconstructed form, yIlan (turkic) < *dIlan , based on dilom
in the nominalia. the -m form may have come about in the
document due to analogy with the ordinals.

>  for some central asian peoples), so "Deljan" was probably a corrupted 
>  form of "dilan", "dilom".
>
>- 1257 AD - ascension of car Constantine Assen, with a third name "Tih". 
>  1257 was the year of the horse in the bulgar cyclic calendar ("teku" in 
>  the nominalia, "tiha" for "little horse" in chuvash).

chuvash tixa < *tayxa < tay + qa, turkic ta:y = colt, pony, -qa
perhaps dimunitive or an ending in animal names. tay a l.w. in persian
and other languages. (chuvash etym. dict., clauson, doerfer)

>
>Besides these reconstructions, there is the "strange" account in the bulgarian
>Apocryphal chronicle about khan Asparuh. He was called there: 
> " A child who was carried in a cow for three years" ("detishte tri leta v 
>   krave noseno")
>
>The point is that in the nominalia between Kuber and his son Asparuh there 
>reigned for three years one Bezmer, who was nobody else but the older brother 
>of Asparuh - Batbajan. And Bezmer started to rule in the year of shegor - the
>year of the bull. 

yes, likely. shegor < turk. sIg~Ir

>
>Thus Asparuh probably stayed for three years with his brother before moving 
>to the west. And that is probably why in the nominalia the 4-5 centuries of 
>history before Kurt/Kubrat were lumped together and assigned to the reigns 
>of two legendary personages - the records of the previous rulers, if any, 
>remained with the older brother Batbajan and not with Asparuh, who migrated.
>
>
>A side-issue here is the Dobrev detects a 28-years cyclic calendar and the 
>same practice of attaching the name of the cyclic year to the crown name 
>for some assyrian kings. And this is how he explains the incorporation of 
>the nominalia into the book of the kings and the (self)calling there of 
>the bulgar khans as "assyrian kings". Supposedly that was how the bulgars 
>viewed themselves, as followers of some older tradition (?).

I find this extremely unlikely. the association in the nominalia
might be to give some biblical pedigree to the bulghars.

the calender seems to be of chinese origin.

>
>it is turkic and menges gives
>>the same etymology. he discusses it more and provides alternatives
>>which he rejects in byzantion 21. bars actually has some variation in
>>meanng within turkic, it denotes the most familiar large feline that
>>has totemic significance. in turkish kaplan is tiger and pars is
>>leopard, but sometimes it is reversed. it could also mean "snow
>>leopard, ounce". siberia has mainly tigers, while the mountains have
>>snow leopards (apparently a totem among the qyrghyz). lion is
>>invariably arslan (> aslan). it seems there is also a bulghar qan
>>named so, according to menges.
>>
>>it is a common name in turkic, NB the hunnish chief oybars and the
>>mamluk sultan of qypchaq origin baybars (bay = rich, powerful,
>>bountiful)
>
>
>the earliest bulgar(ian) examples are the VIII c. khan Boris, and one 
>"saqaliba Baris" in ibn-Fadlan, who accompanied Fadlan to Volga Bulgaria, 
>to the "king of the saqaliba/bulgars". The earliest russian example I 
>think is one of the names of the first russian saints, the brothers 
>Boris and Gleb. But their mother was a volga bulgar...
>
>>doerfer disagrees with turkish pars being a loan from perisan pa:rs
>>(also ba:rs in per.). instead he considers the persian word a loan
>>from turkic. in pers. it seems to mean "ounce" or sometimes cheetah.
>>however, the resemblance with greek pardalis, pardos (latin pardus) is
>>noted. persian has somewhat similar sounding names: babr for tiger and
>>palang for leopard. my guess is that the word is extermely old and
>>hence similar, rather than a relatively recent loan.
>
>
>Yes, I don't see any reason to connect the bulgar name of Boris/Baris with 
>the similar turkic name(s).
>

that is not what I meant! the extra "I" in tatar avoids a consonant
cluster, it is cognate with turkic. I said it may not be a loan from
iranian, but cognate with it in the very distant past.

>
>Regards,
>Vassil K.
>
>
>