From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: The Bulgars are Bulgars (Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars) Date: 12 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <36e970e1.15968461@news.yale.edu> References: <36ca073a.16343620@news.yale.edu> <36cca3ed.14676934@news.yale.edu> <36cca75c.15555467@news.yale.edu> <36cf2980.190197920@news.yale.edu> <36dee7fa.108219411@news.yale.edu> <36e40f21.4849643@news.yale.edu> <7c6hs4$va@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36e81343.91323025@news.yale.edu> <36e83790.20279149@news.yale.edu> <36e8674f.82083979@news.uunet.lu> Organization: Yale University Newsgroups: sci.lang On Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:02:19 GMT, sarant@village.uunet.lu (Nikos Sarantakos) wrote: >On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:43:28 GMT, cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) >wrote: > >>On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 19:04:27 GMT, cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) >>wrote: >> >> >>>>BUMBAK - cotton PUMBA (‘cotton’) [ARS, 116] Pashto >>>> (noun) (dial.) >>> >>>turk. pamuk, variant (ott., dial.) panbuk, pambuk < turkic >>> < iran. (clauson) >>> >> >>clauson derives this word ultimately from greek bombux "silk worm" > >This is what I have read, too, but could you please state the >intermediate forms (from Gk. to Tk. pambuk) according >to Clauson? > >ns > > > the oldest mention of "pamuk" seems to be in the 11th century by kashgari where it is bamuk / pamuk (he very rarely distinguishes p/b), but the word must be older. it is mentioned as an oghuz word (the group turkish is in) but it seems to have a wider distribution. old anatolian turkish has panbuk, panbIk etc. (in written form starting with the 14th century) according to the historical dictionary (tarama sozlUgU and eyuboglu). persian has panba, which may very well go back to an earlier panbak or panbag in middle persian, which is what clauson would have in mind when saying it comes from "a middle iranian language". what seems strange to me is iranian borrowing a word for silkworm from greek when silk is associated with the east. for bulgarian dobrev has: BUBA - a BOBAN (mulberry branches, Pamirian silkworm; a used for feeding the little bug silkworms) - in the Khufi, Roshov l-s (Pamirian)