From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User)
Subject: Re: The Bulgars are Bulgars (Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars)
Date: 23 Feb 1999 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <36d329f4.20002872@news.yale.edu>
References: <36ca073a.16343620@news.yale.edu> <36cca3ed.14676934@news.yale.edu> <36ccb13d.18084634@news.yale.edu> <36cdff63.113890525@news.yale.edu> <7aou42$jj7@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36d061cc.270137517@news.yale.edu> <7asflk$907@cpca3.uea.ac.uk>
Organization: Yale University
Newsgroups: sci.lang

On 22 Feb 1999 20:45:40 GMT, e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil
Karloukovski) wrote:

>In article <36d061cc.270137517@news.yale.edu>, cluster.user@yale.edu says...
>>On 21 Feb 1999 12:27:46 GMT, e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil Karloukovski) wrote:
>
>...
>the involvement of the citrus fruit sounds strange to me.
>>the word may be involved as a cognate with a slightly different
>>meaning in east-iranian -  don't know. the new (i.e. post-sasani, in
>>view of the absence of -k) persian word by itself does not sound
>>convincing to me.
>
>
>"Turnesi" must have been the bulgar word for gold coin, it appears in
>one medieval bulgarian translation of a greek story - "About the monk who
>sold baskets": an old monk was selling baskets next to a church in Alexandria.
>Some people required about the price, and the monk said: "Ten numias (sp?)".
>And next, the bulgarian translator explained the meaning of the greek numia: 
>"The turnes or penenza are called [in greek] numia" ("Turnesa ili penenza 
>glagoljat numija").
>

now it sounds less strange, as it may have been a colloquial name.

>Thus, there are reported next to each other the greek, bulg. slavic and
>bulgar words, "penenza" corresponding to the old slavic "penenz" (coin),
>preserved nowadays in the polish "pieniadz".
>
>Dobrev claims there wasn't an exact parallel found for the bulgar 
>"turnesi" in any other language. The closest he got to were the pamirian
>(wakhani) TURUNG "orange, reddish" (also the udmurt and the mari names
>for the coins - turIn, tulImash, probably from an earlier volga bulgar 
>*turnesh). "Turnesi" supposedly being formed in the same way as the 
>ukrainian word for gold  - "chervonec" (literally - red metal) from 
>"chervonnIj" (red). 
>
>
>Speaking about metals, Dobrev also derives the old bulgarian "chuvenchii"
>(iron smith) from the persian "chuven" (wrought iron). And the so called

should be "cast iron"

persian has in this meaning *ch*avdan , *ch*awdan - using a for the
short vowel that could be an open e - *ch*evden. it's not turkic or
arabic (can't be with *ch*) and steingass gives no etymology so it is
reagrdedas native to persian. cast iron was discovered in china long
before it entered europe. the origin of the word mst be sought in
asia.

>in the arabic sources "Silver bulgars" on volga, also "Nukrat bulgars" - 

this is based on arabic nuqra(t) - a small cavity. it got to mean gold
or silver poured into one, am ingot or a coin and then became a
popular word fo silver in persian. the (t) in arabic is pronounced or
not depending on the position in the sentence, hence the variation in
borrowing. the native (iranian) word for silver in pesian is si:m.

q normally indicates a borrowing, qalansuwa(t) mentioned by dobrev
howver is not native to arabic and seems to be the arabicized form of
the iranian words given by dobrev for (volga) bulgar caps. it is now
used for peaked caps in general.

>from the pamirian word for silver - "nukra". Are these words native to 
>pamirian/persian, or there again will arise some problems with arabic/ 
>turkic parallels?

as I said it is not a native iranian word.

>
>
>Regards,
>Vassil K.
>