From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars Date: 06 Feb 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <36bb9684.197081548@news.yale.edu> References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl> <796m95$eq2@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <375c0ea6.1954957123@news.wxs.nl> <79fo99$qkl@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> Organization: Yale University Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang On 5 Feb 1999 21:36:41 GMT, e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil Karloukovski) wrote: > > > >Ok, an altaic or uralic or even tungus component among the danube bulgars >should not be denied, Mr. cluster_user also doesn't mind an iranian >component on volga. The 'contested ground' as I see it is whether the, >let's say, still hypothetical 'original' bulgars were eastern iranian >or turkic. Here it should be noted that the stress on their 'turkicness' >misinterpreted completely the material and other records left by them >on the balkans and, in fact, the whole early bulgarian history. For >example, several pre-christian buildings-sanctuaries, resembling >zoroastrian temples of fire had been excavated in bulgar fortresses >(near the Throne palace in the capital Pliska, in Preslav and Madara, >also in Humarin in Karachaevo-Cherkessia). They were labelled 'strange' >and remained unexplained, out of context, as the 'turkic' bulgars were I have a feeling that you are being a little unfair as you are dealing with a relatively obscure field of both turkic and iranian studies. unless specifically interested (as a specialist) in the bulgarians neither a turkic nor an iranian scholar would attach much importance to these. >not 'supposed' to do such things... I would still have some doubts that these were alanic - at least in the sense of being brought from central asia. they very well could reflect middle persian influence in the kuban region. after all, azerbaiyjan is known for its fire tempels and I heard that it even got its name from them. > >Similar was the story with the rock relief from Madara (NE B-ia), the so >called Madara horseman. At first, it was pronounced to be a persian work >done in the 5th c. BC during the Darius campaign against the scythians, >or a work of the thracians who adopted the iconography from these >persians. The presence of 8th c. AD inscriptions of bulgar khans around >the horseman was attributed to their fascination by the 'persian' relief. >The khans supposedly fancied it so much that they even built the whole >religious complex of Madara (the same zoroastrian-type temples, cloisters >in caves, etc.) around the relief!? But it was more difficult to suppose again, if there is great similariy to persian works, the prudent approach is to ascribe it to their influence, as nomadic people, whether iranian or turkic are unliekly to have such a strong tradition. >that the rock relief itself was built by the bulgars as a part of the >same Madara complex, some ten kilometres from the capital Pliska... >Or take the hydronym VARDAR - the other name for Axios, which appeared >roughly at the same time as the bulgars. Some persian immigrants >settling under byzantine rule in Macedonia had to be involved in >order to explain its etymology, but nobody attempted to connect "Vardar" >with the bulgars even when a byzantine source (John Cecas) implicitly >mentions that it was the bulgarian name for Axios: > "And the bulgarians are paeonians (pannonians)! Do not believe to the > fools [who think] that the paeonians are any different. They, the > fools, [also] think that Axios is different from Vardar". > > but the question can only >>be resolved by a careful and detailed analysis of borrowed >>vocabulary in Volga Finnic and other Uralic languages (including >>Hungarian), in Chuvash, in Z-Turkic languages now spoken in the >>area such as Tatar and Bashkir, and in the East Iranian languages >>I mentioned earlier (Ossetic, Yaghnobi; Sogdian, Bactrian, >>Saka-Khotanese etc.). Parts of the puzzle may also be found in >>Slavic languages (Russian/Ukrainian and Bulgarian). Plenty of >>stuff here for a whole bunch of Ural-Altai-Indo-Europeanists to >>write doctoral dissertations about. > > >Another approach would be to look for some features common to all (or >several) areas where the ethnicon 'bulgar' appears. There was mixing >with other peoples in all places, slavicisation, turkicisation, >latinisation, etc. Regardless of that and regardless of how mixed >some people believe the bulgars had been initially, still there is >some unity in their culture displayed by the names and customs common >to two or more areas where they had settled: > > - the custom according to which the daughters do not inherit any part > of the lands of their fathers but are compensated with cattle, gold, > etc. at the time of their marriage. - attested in danube bulgaria > in the IXth c. AD (the questions of khan Boris to pope Nicolas), and > in the italian custom Bulgaro according to which the widow was entitled > to the aliments (food, clothes, etc.) derived from a certain land > property but couldn't inherit the land itself. The turkic and the > mongolian traditions were quite the opposite - at their marriages > the daughters did not receive a dowry but the bridegrooms had to > pay a ransom to the parents of the brides. > > - the personal name "Alcek" which appears both among the bulgars in > Italy (prince Alcek) and in Armenia (a village Alcek, one catholicos > Komitas I Alcekci). > > - names of Doks, Toh, Tuh - both in the armenian toponymy and in the > nominalia of the danube bulgars, > > - one dining custom common both to the volga and danube khans, > etc. > > >Regards, >Vassil K > > >Plenty of >>stuff here for a whole bunch of Ural-Altai-Indo-Europeanists to >>write doctoral dissertations about. >> >>======================= >>Miguel Carrasquer Vidal >>mcv@wxs.nl >>Amsterdam >