From: e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil Karloukovski)
Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars
Date: 02 Feb 1999 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <796m95$eq2@cpca3.uea.ac.uk>
References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl>
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In article <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl>, mcv@wxs.nl says...
...
>Of course Uralic peoples must have been in contact with Iranians
>for almost as long as we can recognize Iranian as a separate
>branch of Indo-European, roughly the second millennium BC.  The
>Iranian borrowings in Mari could have entered the language at any
>time since that time 


Well, if the borrowings had been very old, shouldn't they have been 
present in other Uralic l-s, not in Mari alone as Dobrev claims? On 
the other hand, isn't it plausible to suppose that these borrowings 
have entered Mari at the time when they switched to agriculture or 
have come into contact with the agricultural terminology of other 
people? And it is archeologically attested that the ploughing agriculture
was introduced in the middle Volga region by the bulgars. Together,
probably, with some cultures - in russian 'bolgarskoe proso' ('bulgarian
millet') refers to one rather fine-grained eastern variety of millet.

until the predominant languages in the
>steppe became Turkic and the Iranian languages became limited to
>a few isolated enclaves (Ossetic in the Caucasus, Yaghnobi in
>Central Asia), roughly the first millennium AD.  
>
>It would be interesting to compare the Mari borrowings (as well
>as the Ugric (Khanty-Mansi), Permic (Udmurt-Komi) and Mordvin
>ones) with reconstructed (East-)Iranian and with other modern and
>ancient East Iranian languages like Ossetic and Yaghnobi, or
>Sogdian, Bactrian and Saka-Khotanese.


Yes, please, somebody do so. :-))


Regards,
Vassil Karloukovski

>=======================
>Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
>mcv@wxs.nl
>Amsterdam