From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars Date: 01 Feb 1999 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: <36b62799.28214259@news.yale.edu> References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <36AC3460.856801F6@earthlink.net> <36ae814d.4306061@news.yale.edu> <78pov2$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0d1b1.748416@news.yale.edu> <78utc2$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> Organization: Yale University Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang On 30 Jan 1999 12:19:14 GMT, e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil Karloukovski) wrote: >In article <36b0d1b1.748416@news.yale.edu>, cluster.user@yale.edu says... >>On 28 Jan 1999 13:33:22 GMT, e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil Karloukovski) wrote: > >... >>>On leaving Bashkiria and entering Volga Bulgaria Ibn Fadlan stops mentioning >>>any Turks. He speaks only about 'bulgars' and 'saqaliba', and to him these terms >>>indeed seem to be interchangable, equivalent (?). > >>because those in the east are -z turkic, and also the ones that had >>participated in the confederation of the "turk," and were going under >>that name when arabs had first entered central asia. -z turkic, or >>common turkic, was at the time was differentiated from -r turkic, >>whereas the rest were relatively similar to each other. however, it >>seems that authors more familiar with old (-z) turkic or speaking it >>as their native language caught on to the relationship. > > >I still don't see how the evidence (supposedly correct) of later authors could >be applied to refute an earlier evidence. There are several Volga Bulgar words the presence of an iranian or iranian- influenced population is not denied. there is not much to "refute" so I won't quibble about teh pssibiltyof soem errors or ommisions in this list. >recorded accidentally by Ibn-Fadlan and others - > AVUS - 'wax', > BELUVIK - 'monument', > DALAT - the name of the valuable pelts in which the taxes has been paid, > KHADANK - 'a type of tree', > KHALANZH - 'tree with a valuable wood', > KHALDZHA - the lake region near the king's summer palace, etc. > >and these words have perfect eastern-iranian or eastern-caucasian cognates: > the eastern-caucasian AVUS - 'wax' > the pamirian BEL'WIK - 'to remember', > DALAT - 'leather' (eastern caucasian), > DALA - 'valuable pelts of marten or sable' (pamirian) > KHADANK - 'poplar', KHADA - 'lime-tree' (pamirian) > KHALANDZH - 'a type of oak', KHALANDZHA - 'chestnut-tree' (pamirian), > KHALIDZH - 'inlet, pool, lake' in some pamirian languages, etc. > > >Furthermore, Ibn-Fadlan's story contains other hints to the fact that the >Volga Bulgars were recent newcomers to these lands and that they had come >from the south. For example, his observation about the sour apples - > "I saw that they (the Bulgars) have apples - quite green and very sour, > their taste was like that of the vinegar used by the maidens. That is > why they were called maiden apples". > >He has probably recorded the rather unsuccessful attempt to cultivate some >southern variety of apples brought to the Volga region. > >The same thing with the strange and ineffective way they stuck to for >storing the grain production - > "...grain, which is quite bad, black and stinking, and they don't have rooms > for storing their grain. They dig wells and bury the food there. In several > days time it is spoiled, it changes its taste, becomes smelly and cannot be > used anymore." > >The burying of the grain in pits is the traditional way of storing it in the >arid southern regions. In NE Bulgaria (Dobrudzha) such pits are called KHUMBA, >in the Pamirs the same pits are called KHUMB. Ibn-Fadlan has recorded the same >tradition which, however, turned out unsuitable for the damp Middle Volga climate. > > >>>Indeed, Bulgars and Turks are mentioned as living in the north-western Caucasus >>>in Armenian sources but, again, as in the case of Ibn-Fadlan, they are clearly >>>differentiated. >... >>>The 'Onoghontor-blkar (immigrants)' here are most probably the Unogundurs/Unogurs, >> >>and there is good reason to believe these were -r turkic. > > >That would be strange. The Unogundurs of Asparukh were those who came to the >Balkans and who left all these inscriptions written in a 'strange' language. >Is there any epigraphical evidence? they also participated in a confederation with the magyars and the older altaic element in hungarian is very close to chuvash. onogur would aslo be a very valid -r turkic tribal name. > >Regards, >Vassil Karloukovski >