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Excerpts from the Jan-Feb 1999 discussion (Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars) in the sci.lang newsgroup and the comments to Peter Dobrev's list, made by Mr. Cluster User:



Subject:       Re: The Bulgars are Bulgars (Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars)
Author:       Cluster User <cluster.user@yale.edu>
Date:           1999/01/29
Forum:        sci.archaeology, sci.lang, sci.anthopology

On Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:22:13 GMT, emko@mail.techno-link.com wrote:

>The Bulgars are Bulgars ...
>
>http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/pb_lang/index.html
>http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/b_lang/
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"old bulgarian" etymologies in modern bulgarian.

this list contains many (*not* all) words from ottoman turkish (either
of persian, arabic, turkish or other origin). the reason these
can be found in pamir languages is the common relationship
of persian with them or borrowing from persian. in somw cases the
resemblence is coincidental.



Subject:     Re: The Bulgars are Bulgars (Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars)
Author:      Vassil Karloukovski <e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk>
Date:          1999/01/30
Forum:       sci.archaeology, sci.lang, sci.anthopology

In article <36b214b4.73903547@news.yale.edu>, cluster.user@yale.edu says...

>>The Bulgars are Bulgars ...
>>
>>http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/pb_lang/index.html
>>http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/b_lang/
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>"old bulgarian" etymologies in modern bulgarian.
>
>this list contains many (*not* all) words from ottoman turkish (either
>of persian, arabic, turkish or other origin). the reason these
>can be found in pamir languages is the common relationship
>of persian with them or borrowing from persian. in somw cases the
>resemblence is coincidental.

I would be very interested in having your more detailed opinion, even it
would be great to put them as commentaries on the web-page. While there are
indeed hundreds if not thousands of persian, turkish, arabic words in
modern bulgarian (via ottoman turkish), it would be difficult to imagine
pashto words getting into bulgarian this way.

Regards,
Vassil Karloukovski



Subject:       Re: The Bulgars are Bulgars (Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars)
Author:       Cluster User <cluster.user@yale.edu>
Date:           1999/01/30
Forum:        sci.archaeology, sci.lang, sci.anthopology

On 30 Jan 1999 14:07:55 GMT, e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil Karloukovski) wrote:

>In article <36b214b4.73903547@news.yale.edu>, cluster.user@yale.edu says...
...
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>"old bulgarian" etymologies in modern bulgarian.
>>
>>this list contains many (*not* all) words from ottoman turkish (either
>>of persian, arabic, turkish or other origin). the reason these
>>can be found in pamir languages is the common relationship
>>of persian with them or borrowing from persian. in somw cases the
>>resemblence is coincidental.
>
>I would be very interested in having your more detailed opinion, even it
>would be great to put them as commentaries on the web-page. While there are
>indeed hundreds if not thousands of persian, turkish, arabic words in
>modern bulgarian (via ottoman turkish), it would be difficult to imagine
>pashto words getting into bulgarian this way.

OK. after I get it organised. the words I have in mind are not native
or peculiar to the languages in question. some of them are labeled
"talysh". this is a west-iranic minority language in azerbaijan (see
for example "ethnologue") and one can readily see how much imbued with
loanwords it must be.



Subject:      Re: The Bulgars are Bulgars (Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars)
Author:      Vassil Karloukovski <e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk>
Date:          1999/01/31
Forum:       sci.archaeology, sci.lang, sci.anthopology

In article <36b353d0.62050604@news.yale.edu>, cluster.user@yale.edu says...
>On 30 Jan 1999 14:07:55 GMT, e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil Karloukovski) wrote:

...
>>I would be very interested in having your more detailed opinion, even it
>>would be great to put them as commentaries on the web-page. While there are
>>indeed hundreds if not thousands of persian, turkish, arabic words in
>>modern bulgarian (via ottoman turkish), it would be difficult to imagine
>>pashto words getting into bulgarian this way.

>OK. after I get it organised. the words I have in mind are not native
>or peculiar to the languages in question. some of them are labeled
>"talysh". this is a west-iranic minority language in azerbaijan (see
>for example "ethnologue") and one can readily see how much imbued with
>loanwords it must be.
 

Yes, the talysh live in the border areas between Azerbaijan and Iran and seem to
provide many parallels to the words both from the pre-Xth century AD bulgar
inscriptions and from modern bulgarian.

The point is that the Armenian sources had recorded a IVth century AD (or probably
even earlier) Bulgar migration under the leadership of a certain Vanand from the
Caucasus to the region of Kars in Armenia. This migration is supported by toponymical
data - Vanand-chaj (a tributary of Arax), Bolgaru-chaj (a border river between
Azerbaijan and Iran), etc., and it could probably explain why talysh contains the
closest to the old bulgar forms.

Regards,
Vassil Karloukovski



From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: The Bulgars are Bulgars (Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:46:56 GMT
Organization: Yale University

Ok just as a preamble for my list, I substituted b for the schwa sound
in bulgarian and other words that were written in capitals. the
turkish alphabet has has th efollowing peculiarities:

c= *dj* , c, *ch* j = *zh* I (I without a dot, which i write in
capital) = russian bI g~ = *gh*. q and k are not distinguished in
writting but are in speech. ottoman orthography and rural speech
distinguish n and *ng*, h and x. I wrote persian essentially with the
turkish alphabet including short a rendered as e, since it is an open
sound in turkish and the persian a is fronted. I did not do this for
arabic short a, but tried to follow turkish spelling in other
respects, but taking care to distinguish semitic sounds. thus the
similarities in these loanwords is more apparent. I did not bother to
translate if the word in one language did not change in meaning from
one language to another.

this is a draft. I'll may add a few more later.
 

. . . [for more info see the lengthy thread(s) in sci.lang]
 

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